My point is, if you don’t truly believe it will change, then you aren’t contributing. Somebody has to believe and it will happen, the more people believing the quicker it happens. But it will eventually, either way.
Also a lot of people saying shit like “it won’t happen, I’d like to see it but I don’t believe it’ll make a difference” are often making excuses to avoid any kind of localised or collective activism, “pub moaner” types.
Im not convinced, I didnt believe the stop the war march would stop the war, but to say I didnt contribute when I spent the day marching and what not seems odd logic.
Surly it depends on so many factors to boil it down to, if people just beleived then it will happen, well its just seems a bit Disney to me. *shrugs* dunno
@photographthesun 324608 wrote:
Im not convinced, I didnt believe the stop the war march would stop the war, but to say I didnt contribute when I spent the day marching and what not seems odd logic.
Surly it depends on so many factors to boil it down to, if people just beleived then it will happen, well its just seems a bit Disney to me. *shrugs* dunno
its always the general consensus that will happen. Its always the view of the majority that will get carried out eventually.
politicians are always looking for the majority vote to get what they want, and this is why news is so twisted sometimes… to get everyone believing it from their point of view so they get what they want
because its always what the majority wants is what happens
if the majority of people were still disagreeing with g20, drastic action would have been taken by now. But in reality, although bigged up by the media, only a minority in scale to the rest are actively disagreeing with the events of g20 protest
I never said you didn’t contribute, I said for some people it’s an excuse.
Anyway, as I’ve already stated, social change is a long-term ambition, hundreds of horrific events will happen until the day when it becomes no longer acceptable for world leaders to get away with things.
And spending a day marching is all fine and dandy, but it’s not realistically going to do anything. People need to change things in their local community through activism in small ways every day, not just turn up once a year to a mass protest.
I think you’re entirely missing my point. I’m not some kind of unrealistic fluffy hippy that believes “if we simply believe it will change” and goes and sits up a fucking tree.
I’m saying you have to have belief to be an activist every day, you have to have belief otherwise you obviously wouldn’t do it. Anyone working for local change in their own communities, be it climate change, social exclusion, equality… they will all see set-backs and countless frustrations, but they obviously have to believe that someday things will change otherwise they’d give up contributing to that someday.
I think its a lot more than marches – it means personal sacrifices etc.
the war happened because of people power too – there were fuel protests in 2000 when OPEC put up their oil prices (not just because of tax) and that was the main driver what made Blair take the risk of going into the war – to secure oil for the UK. TBH if he had had the bollocks to say the true reason only half the country or less would have disagreed…
Had Iraq fallen within months with a decisive victory, with no effective fightback from the insurgents all the oil secured for western interests and had petrol dropped to 50p a litre, Blair would be viewed as a military hero rather than a villain or even just a muppet.
With my own life, although I can see how getting a full license and a car (neither of which I currently have) would be convenient for stuff like parties/festies etc, I’ve lived without either long enough and don’t need them – I am a single man with no children for one thing and am fit enough to cycle 25 or more miles if need be. I did think of getting a small motorbike but they actually use a lot of resources in their making (as much as motor cars) and cause pollution too, and all just for one person to be able to travel on a whim.
yes it means I have to “limit my horizons and freedom of movement” but so be it – at least I can put my hand on my heart and say I’m not contibuting to the need for the war.
another thing I’ve done is stopped always buying the latest gadgets (a sacrifice for a techie) I’m not a obvious eco warrior and don’t attend protests (as most are in London, more non-essential travel!) but try to do my bit…
Anyway, as I’ve already stated, social change is a long-term ambition, hundreds of horrific events will happen until the day when it becomes no longer acceptable for world leaders to get away with things.
And spending a day marching is all fine and dandy, but it’s not realistically going to do anything. People need to change things in their local community through activism in small ways every day, not just turn up once a year to a mass protest.
I think you’re entirely missing my point. I’m not some kind of unrealistic fluffy hippy that believes “if we simply believe it will change” and goes and sits up a fucking tree.
I’m saying you have to have belief to be an activist every day, you have to have belief otherwise you obviously wouldn’t do it. Anyone working for local change in their own communities, be it climate change, social exclusion, equality… they will all see set-backs and countless frustrations, but they obviously have to believe that someday things will change otherwise they’d give up contributing to that someday.
Ah sorry I see what you mean.
politicians are always looking for the majority vote to get what they want, and this is why news is so twisted sometimes… to get everyone believing it from their point of view so they get what they want
because its always what the majority wants is what happens
if the majority of people were still disagreeing with g20, drastic action would have been taken by now. But in reality, although bigged up by the media, only a minority in scale to the rest are actively disagreeing with the events of g20 protest
I’m not entirely sure that’s true. Surveys would suggest that the majority of the population would support capital punishment in extreme cases. However it would be political suicide for the main parties to suggest reinstating the death penalty.
I think the “voice of the majority” actually changes very little as a political voice. It’s individuals that push things, apart from lynch-mob style hate campaigns the mass-majority tend to whinge but do little about it, and therefore don’t have as big an impact as people might think.
And also, I think that when you have 2 million on the streets for the Iraq war (a huge percentage of the adult population) then you know the majority are against it, yet it didn’t change anything.
At the moment there is little we can do in terms of nationalised or global immediate change, hence my repeated commitment to striving for change within communities.
For example, my list of effective and pointless:
Want climate change?
How about setting up better alternative transport in your area, either through lobbying or even practical activism, to create an incentive for people to ditch the car? People are not going to use public transport whilst it is so temperamental and expensive, so a realistic way to change mindsets would be to create realistic and feasible alternatives. Set up recycling centres or offer a service to sort recycling, drop round leaflets, set up a localised “freecycle” system where people exchange unwanted possessions instead of chucking them.
Alternatively, you could always go break into a school, then storm a power plant with the ambition of switching the entire thing off, pissing off the local population and spending more money and energy restarting the thing, making the general consensus from the local population that you’ve done more harm than good, and thus rendering the entire activity entirely counter-productive. Sure, you might get a buzz from it and enjoy being amongst the “right-on” hippies, but at the end of the day so-and-so from next door is still gonna leave all her lights on for no reason then use that 4×4 to drive down the street.
Want a more equal society?
Get involved with local community action – youth work, alternative opporunities, support groups and lobbying groups for unemployment, work with local businesses to create jobs in the community, encourage empathy and use a united community to support political change.
Don’t go down to London for your one day a year and put a window through. Basically to cut it short much for the same reasons as above, it’s counter-productive and does little to gain mass-support.
with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom, China Asia are expanding so quickly that any tiney positive effect on the enviroment will be destryoed.
I think its very noble, I just dont understand how its ment to work on a pratical level, or is it deeper than that?
boothy, i see ur point.. but i dont believe politicians would get anywhere with their voice until people support them… its not political suicide if everyone agrees…. do u see what im tryna say?
however i agree that if one has an army then theyre obviously going to have leverage regardless of a majority belief
@photographthesun 324614 wrote:
with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom, China Asia are expanding so quickly that any tiney positive effect on the enviroment will be destryoed.
I think its very noble, I just dont understand how its ment to work on a pratical level, or is it deeper than that?
every little helps
Not really
Might as well just not bother then? After all it’s never gonna happen.
Don’t forget, people said that black people would always be below white people, and told the activists “it’ll never happen” and “it’s human nature”.
Of course it will happen, just don’t expect it to overnight, or without a bit of optimism.
Sort-of, and you are right in a way, if everyone agrees and more than that, strongly agree and are willing to fight, a politician would be stupid to go against it.
But say the vast majority support capital punishment (which some would argue they do) it would still be political suicide because of the progressive minority.
this isn’t true. CN and Asia may be expanding but they are more environmentally aware than people realise, going back to ancient cultures.
The Chinese don’t want to trash their own environment. the reason they are expanding is because of Western demand for cheap disposable tat which many of them would rather not make anyway, but they obviously can’t afford to turn down the business, and would rather have less contracts making more durable goods with higher budgets than cheap plastic toyes etc. There was even a big meeting in Singapore a couple of years ago about this!
the recession has also created a new way of thinking in China – even the younger people are downshifting their lives rather than spending.
Many Indians also have a relatively low impact on their enviroment particularly in the rural areas, and again its down to the West – if places like Bangalore etc have become overcrowded much is because we as consumers insist on cheap services so work is outsourced there.
Don’t forget, people said that black people would always be below white people, and told the activists “it’ll never happen” and “it’s human nature”.
Of course it will happen, just don’t expect it to overnight, or without a bit of optimism.
No we should bother to find another way that might achally work. Got to be better in a pratical sense than thinking tiny actions of no stastical significance might save the planet! However on a personal level I do think its a moral thing to do etc
its actually cheaper to save the planet which is as much a good reason for doing so as the recession deepens. This one is similar to those of 20-30 years ago (which I remember) but also is worse because natural resources are increasingly being depleted…
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