G20 Police Brutality Update Thread

[[deleted] @[deleted] Guest]

General Lighting;324620 wrote:

this isn’t true. CN and Asia may be expanding but they are more environmentally aware than people realise, going back to ancient cultures.

The Chinese don’t want to trash their own environment. the reason they are expanding is because of Western demand for cheap disposable tat which many of them would rather not make anyway, but they obviously can’t afford to turn down the business, and would rather have less contracts making more durable goods with higher budgets than cheap plastic toyes etc. There was even a big meeting in Singapore a couple of years ago about this!

the recession has also created a new way of thinking in China – even the younger people are downshifting their lives rather than spending.

Many Indians also have a relatively low impact on their enviroment particularly in the rural areas, and again its down to the West – if places like Bangalore etc have become overcrowded much is because we as consumers insist on cheap services so work is outsourced there.

China not wanting to trash their own enviroment!? Im really not sure I agree with any of that, China wants to get rich and doent give much of a damn about much else (it has stated publically for example human rights arent a piroity, wealth is). They are oil based economys that are expanding so fast its hard to comprehend. There impact will only get worse, and it will get worse far faster than the west will get better almost certainly.

[6 General Lighting @general-lighting Moderator Staff]

photographthesun;324614 wrote:

with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom,

true but that freedom can be and is being taken from them. not by cops or feds or armies, but the downturn means an increasing number of people are finding it harder and harder to afford to keep a car on the road. This isn’t going to get better in the short term…

[1 MisterDuck @misterduck Member]

photographthesun;324621 wrote:

No we should bother to find another way that might achally work. Got to be better in a pratical sense than thinking tiny actions of no stastical significance might save the planet! However on a personal level I do think its a moral thing to do etc

Of course we need to look for alternatives, but until then we do need to change our tiny actions, of course we do! One of the big ways to persuade people is to show them how much money they actually save by basically cutting down on electricity usage. Of course we need to look for an overall alternative source of energy, but we also have to change the attitudes of the general population, starting locally.

I reiterate:

Quote:

Want climate change?
How about setting up better alternative transport in your area, either through lobbying or even practical activism, to create an incentive for people to ditch the car? People are not going to use public transport whilst it is so temperamental and expensive, so a realistic way to change mindsets would be to create realistic and feasible alternatives. Set up recycling centres or offer a service to sort recycling, drop round leaflets, set up a localised “freecycle” system where people exchange unwanted possessions instead of chucking them.

Alternatively, you could always go break into a school, then storm a power plant with the ambition of switching the entire thing off, pissing off the local population and spending more money and energy restarting the thing, making the general consensus from the local population that you’ve done more harm than good, and thus rendering the entire activity entirely counter-productive. Sure, you might get a buzz from it and enjoy being amongst the “right-on” hippies, but at the end of the day so-and-so from next door is still gonna leave all her lights on for no reason then use that 4×4 to drive down the street.

[6 General Lighting @general-lighting Moderator Staff]

photographthesun;324624 wrote:

China not wanting to trash their own enviroment!? Im really not sure I agree with any of that, China wants to get rich and doent give much of a damn about much else (it has stated publically for example human rights arent a piroity, wealth is).

This is true for human rights (and is the case world wide except many nations don’t have the balls to say it) – but some environmental problems in China have reached a stage (as they did in Western nations 100 or so years ago) where they are endangering the health of new generations – i.e the next load of workers/soldiers etc. Basic survival instincts kick in at this point and China is not immune to the issues regarding peak oil and food shortages (which can also be caused by pollution).

Chinese environmentalists are even allowed to speak without being nicked or marginalised…

[1 globalloon @globalloon Member]

@joshd96320 324609 wrote:

because its always what the majority wants is what happens

not true, it’s what the biggest minority wants that will happen

at national elections not much more than half the electorate vote and to win a convincing parliamentary majority the winning party only need a third of the votes cast (or one sixth of the available vote) under our current system

[1 globalloon @globalloon Member]

@General Lighting 324627 wrote:

This is true for human rights (and is the case world wide except many nations don’t have the balls to say it) – but some environmental problems in China have reached a stage (as they did in Western nations 100 or so years ago) where they are endangering the health of new generations – i.e the next load of workers/soldiers etc. Basic survival instincts kick in at this point and China is not immune to the issues regarding peak oil and food shortages (which can also be caused by pollution).

Chinese environmentalists are even allowed to speak without being nicked or marginalised…

Chinese government were the 1st country in the world to start building energy neutral towns. and use a fraction of the energy, per capita, that USA and EU countries do. A fact that puts the west to shame when it comes to reducing climate change

sorry, thread hijack

[1 joshd96320 @joshd96320 Member]

@globalloon 324678 wrote:

not true, it’s what the biggest minority wants that will happen

at national elections not much more than half the electorate vote and to win a convincing parliamentary majority the winning party only need a third of the votes cast (or one sixth of the available vote) under out current system

yes but thats still the majority since all those votes have united to vote for one where as all the other votes, although there may be more other votes will be spread out over more people / entities / whatever so its the majority still if that makes sense

brain is bit mushy again

[1 globalloon @globalloon Member]

@joshd96320 324681 wrote:

yes but thats still the majority since all those votes have united to vote for one where as all the other votes, although there may be more other votes will be spread out over more people / entities / whatever so its the majority still if that makes sense brain is bit mushy again

no, under our current system the winning party can receive less votes and still win more seat in parliament and so have the majority

imagine this is the election results

…………….lab……con….lib
exeter……..3………1…….2
newcastle…3………1…….2
norfolk……..1………3…….2

if this was the whole county, labour would have 2 seats, conservatives would have 1 and libdem would have none, despite winning more votes than the conservatives.

do you see? our electoral system gives the minority power

[1 rumpus rhythm @rumpus-rhythm Member]

General Lighting;324620 wrote:

CN and Asia may be expanding but they are more environmentally aware than people realise, going back to ancient cultures.

After watching the Unreported World documentary a few weeks back about the huge open cast coal mining and associated out of control fires in NE india i would have to disagree with the above comment. Link below (i did do a search and did not see another thread but apologies if its already been discussed)

Unreported World – Series 2009 – Episode 7 – India: Children of the Inferno – Channel 4

The populations of asia have a very low environmental imapct (per capita) that puts westerners to shame as mentioned above but the industrial sectors seem to be out of control on evidence to date

[1 joshd96320 @joshd96320 Member]

@globalloon 324686 wrote:

no, under our current system the winning party can receive less votes and still win more seat in parliament and so have the majority

imagine this is the election results

…………….lab……con….lib
exeter……..3………1…….2
newcastle…3………1…….2
norfolk……..1………3…….2

if this was the whole county, labour would have 2 seats, conservatives would have 1 and libdem would have none, despite winning more votes than the conservatives.

do you see? our electoral system gives the minority power

i getcha! soz for the misunderstanding ;p

[6 General Lighting @general-lighting Moderator Staff]

Brock the badger;324704 wrote:

After watching the Unreported World documentary a few weeks back about the huge open cast coal mining and associated out of control fires in NE india i would have to disagree with the above comment. Link below (i did do a search and did not see another thread but apologies if its already been discussed)

Unreported World – Series 2009 – Episode 7 – India: Children of the Inferno – Channel 4

The populations of asia have a very low environmental imapct (per capita) that puts westerners to shame as mentioned above but the industrial sectors seem to be out of control on evidence to date

Similar coal fires and mines exist in some parts of the USA, and it was only a few decades ago that conditions for miners in Britain weren’t that good. Although the crushing of the strikes wasn’t good, I expect had coal mining persisted in Britain – particularly during thatchos rabid free market ethos that Wales and some parts of the North wouldn’t look too pretty today.

Industry will of course have negative environmental consequences worldwide but the population of Asia is divided about this (to the point of near civil war in some areas) and isn’t entirely passive. There is is a definite resurgence in environmental awareness across Asia, and it does seem they are quicker at turning things around compared to the West and compared to even 10 years ago – as it seems nature fights back harder in that part of the word anyway.

Also they start from poorer populations without too many chances for middle class nimbys to whinge about big changes in the face of strong nationalised industries and strong governments – this can work both in positive and negative directions. It may take some unfortunate things to happen and population reductions where people learn the hard way, but this seems inevitable worldwide..

Also in many respects the global recession isn’t that bad an occurence as it is slowing economic growth and demand for resources. Ever considered that at least one reason the Indians are using all that electric and thus needing the coal is to power the data centres for British companies what bangalored all their IT and call centre staff? Indians may not be able to match “western” eco standards yet but thats because their trading partners (the West) drive a hard bargain and and India’s growth is built on the West’s trade….

[1 rumpus rhythm @rumpus-rhythm Member]

General Lighting;324709 wrote:

Similar coal fires and mines exist in some parts of the USA, and it was only a few decades ago that conditions for miners in Britain weren’t that good. Although the crushing of the strikes wasn’t good, I expect had coal mining persisted in Britain – particularly during thatchos rabid free market ethos that Wales and some parts of the North wouldn’t look too pretty today.

Coal fires reported as burning villagers out of their homes on masse and relegating them to coal scavengers is pretty bad and not really comparable.

Agreed that historical coal mining was bad in the UK but significant progress in technology is now available today that was not back then

(saying that even new technology is not adequate to persist in using coal as fuel)

[6 General Lighting @general-lighting Moderator Staff]

Brock the badger;324719 wrote:

Coal fires reported as burning villagers out of their homes on masse and relegating them to coal scavengers is pretty bad and not really comparable.

not in the UK as we never thankfully went that far with intensive coal mining – but similar things have happened in the much more advanced USA.

Centralia, Pennsylvania – Encyclopedia of Earth
Centralia PA Mine Fire – Coal Burning underground, Homes destroyed

The wider situation in Asia is far from ideal but its not being totally ignored by the local population. They may not seem receptive to “western” ecological ideals due to the sheer strength of market forces, cultural barriers and an understandable desire to become “developed” nations but its not as if in the modern times environmental awareness is non existent..

516, Shades of Green
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3250

anyway, the argument made that “its pointless saving the environment in the West because Asia is only going to trash it” and used as excuses for apathy and inaction is a dangerous one, which if adopted by both continents could easily make things much worse..

[1 binge @binge Member]

Boothy- I’m loving what you’re saying. However, I don’t think we should pay too much attention to the coppers though, there’s more important issues at hand. The OB will always do what they do, and we’ll also just keep on doing our thing. They didn’t act any differently from usual at G20- it’s just we all had cameras. Surviellence society turning on itself!

If you really want to help, the Climate Camp legal team will be looking to raise 25-40k over the next few months to bring a judical review about the tactic of kettling at the G20. We’re currently trying to work out how to get donations through the website without using Paypal so you can donate when that’s sorted.

As for getting into activism- well done sir. Next Climate Camp national gathering is in Hebden Bridge on the 23rd-24th May (details on the website). I’ll see you there.

I’d love to talk more about this, but have to go and contact all the Friend of the Earth groups in London to invite them to an event discussing the History of Direct Action and why it’s so important today…..

(Facebook event here if you’re interested)

[1 globalloon @globalloon Member]

@binge 325005 wrote:

Boothy- I’m loving what you’re saying. However, I don’t think we should pay too much attention to the coppers though, there’s more important issues at hand.

the politicising of the police is of real concern, but we should not be distracted away from the real criminals… banks, investment firms and political parties

[Author]

Posts