Forums › Drugs › Ecstasy & MDMA › Nimai Le Santo (RIP): An Overdose and his Father’s Reaction
I’m sorry about your son Mr Le Santo.
Any situation like this is absolutely terrible, i think that everyone on PV would feel sadness about this.
I’m sure we have all seen pretty risky behaviour at parties etc. (and most have us will have done stuff that is probably not that clever, at some point or other), and i think it is a good idea to remind people about the potential risks of mis-use from some one who knows the true cost.
But i also think that we would all do well to remember that however deep the pain of the loss may be, we should not repeat the mistakes of the past. Leah Betts comes to mind
Drug Induced Hysteria : the Media Assault on Leah Betts
or Rachel Whitear
Rachel Whitear mother demands police apology over death – Times Online
Whilst i find it distasteful to argue with someone who is grieving from such a loss, and i appreciate Glenns desire to prevent anyone else suffering as he has, i feel that the tone of this post demands a response.
On the contrary, most of the posters on PV are pretty well informed about drug use/abuse. Some of us have spent decades in and around the party scene, with its many different legal and illegal drugs. For example…
From wiki…
The chief executive of the UK Medical Research Council stated that MDMA is “on the bottom of the scale of harm,” and was rated to be of lesser concern than alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis, as well as several classes of prescription medications, when examining the harmfulness of twenty popular recreational drugs. The UK study placed great weight on the risk for acute physical harm, the propensity for physical and psychological dependency on the drug, and the negative familial and societal impacts of the drug. Based on these factors, the study placed MDMA at number 18 in the list.[76]
David Nutt, chairman of the UK Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, stated in the Journal of Psychopharmacology in January 2009 that ecstasy use compared favorably with horse riding in terms of risk, leading to around 50 deaths a year compared to about 100 from horse riding. The ACMD subsequently made clear that Professor Nutt’s comments were not made on behalf of the ACMD.[77]
An investigation is also currently being run to reclassify ecstasy to a class “B” drug in the United Kingdom, it is currently a class “A” the same as heroin.Source
Or it could be because you get too faced to dose in any way responsibly.
In the same way that alchohol can kill… 8700ish deaths in 2007 in the UK(National statistics online). Any drug user faces this issue with any drug, especially the more dangerous ones, such as alchohol. I appreciate that telling a grieving parent that that the drug that killed their child isnt as dangerous as many others is not going to get a rational response. :hopeless:
Or it can be because of some unknown thing like a slightly weak heart valve, or kidneys or even an accidental fall. Whatever. Freak stuff even.
And if you don’t already have weak organs, you absolutely will be damaging them with ANY use, even single of these substances. Each time will have a smaller or larger cumulative effect. Don’t kid yourself. It will be there to see in your body when you’re on the slab like Nimai was, being diseccted.
One way or another you are simply playing another game of Russian Roulette.
As you do with any drug use… can i ask you if you use any form of drug Glenn? I’m guessing that u drink alchohol (quite frankly, given wot u have been through, i would be amazed if u havent self medicated in some form) as most people in this country do.
If you do, maybe you should reflect on wot the parents of any of the 8000 plus alchohol victims might say to you. They may well make statements similiar to your statements above. The good drugs guide suggests that ecstasy users die at a rate of roughly 1% of the rate of alchohol users. Please understand, I’m not trying to diminish your loss, or to dispute that xtc can kill, but i am trying to put your post into context.
You are fucking with your bodies, slowly but surely, in a way that is not accurately documeneted, studied or understood. Using man made substances that have not been in use by humans for long enough for us to have any real idea of their effect on us, or future generations.
If this is the case, why is the Chief executive of the MRC (not to mention the new chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs) making statements of risk that they are (as i have posted above).
Substances where the so-called safe dose is at the very least sketchy if not simply un-calculable because of all fo the above factors.
I think that more research would be great, indeed is required, but i dont think ‘sketchy’ is an accurate representation of the state of the science.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no up my arse conservative who thinks for a minute everyone is going to go through their lives not taking any kind of risks.
Just google Glenn Le Santo and you’ll see, I too am guilty of taking risks with my own life. Although I do feel in a somewhat more positive manner in that taking the risks paid me, instead of me paying to take the risk.
I have just googled Nimai, and now i am pretty confused because it talks about something called G, how can the coroner attribute his death to MDMA poisoning if he took another substance as well. I notice the reference to a ‘cocktail’ of drugs, does this mean other stuff as well? This paints a far more complicated picture than you seem to suggest. If you had posted about mixing drugs being potentially much more dangerous, i would not have felt compelled to respond.
Having said we know a fair bit about drugs round here, has anyone got any info on G? as i’m not as stupid as Glenn suggests, i have just Googled it, and found this, clearly we are talking about GHB/GBL. I cannot understand how you (or more importantly the coroner) can make such definitive statements about MDMA poisoning, when another, far more dangerous drug was clearly being used!
BBC NEWS | Magazine | The paint stripper drug that kills
from this article…
“This is vastly more dangerous than ecstasy (my bold :hopeless:),” says Dr Sean Cummings, who runs a private gay clinic called Freedom Health in central London.
“I personally know of two deaths this year alone and the numbers using it are much smaller than ecstasy.
The penetration into the [straight clubbing] mainstream is relatively small at the moment and if it spreads, the number of deaths associated with it is going to increase.”
As well as the danger of overdose, there are obvious risks to the stomach, liver and kidneys in ingesting something so toxic, he adds. The availability of GHB has been reduced by the ban but its more potent version has stepped in to meet the demand.
and from later in the article…
Adam Cooper of Knightlife Medical Services says his firm was called out to 16 G overdoses on one Saturday night a few weeks ago, at three gay clubs in London. Four patients needed hospital treatment.
“I can understand people taking ecstasy to get high and dance all night but I can’t understand why you would go to a club and make yourself fall asleep,” says Mr Cooper, who adds that he’s never treated anyone for an ecstasy overdose (my use of bold :hopeless:)
From this BBC website…
BBC NEWS | UK | Living with ecstasy
Glenn is quoted as saying…
“Nimai’s death certificate says MDMA poisoning – that’s ecstasy. It kills. It’s dangerous.”
It looks far more likely to me, that he has died as a result of a totally different drug, ie GHB/GBL. Wot a fucking mess! :hopeless: Why i am having to try to tell Glenn what killed his much loved son… I feel sick… 😥
But when you take any type of serious risks with your life you are also playing with other people’s lives. You cannot know how much pain and heartache Nimai’s death has caused his his family circle. His five brother’s and sisters, his two nephews, his grandparents, his parents and all the people that met and instantly loved Nimai in his too short life. Maybe you don’t give a fuck, but believe me, they do.
And that risk is just as selfish as what you are doing to yourselves.
The same thing could be said about the motorcycle racers that you write about Glenn (and presumably get paid for). If you have spent alot of time at the circuits, i have no doubt that you have been present when fatalities occured.
I myself recall being at Le Mans in 1986 when Jo Gartners car went over the rather minimal barrier on the Mulsanne Straight, and into the trees that line that part of the circuit. He did not survive, another tragic loss.
So was Jo Gartner being selfish, Glenn? I dont think his family would have felt much different to yours…
I’m sorry to respond in what might be seen as an unsympathetic manner, but i think that whilst your contribution illustrates very clearly the pain involved with the loss of an individual who was clearly well loved, i dont think it tells us very much about relative risks, or is even very clear about the actual cause of your sons tragic death.
I repeat, i am not disputing that xtc can kill. :hopeless:
My sincerest sympathies for your loss, i cannot imagine how it must feel to lose a loved one in such circumstances.
I’m really hoping i dont look at this post 2moro and regret it. :hopeless: shit…
PLUR :group_hug
We lost several friends/friends of friends from GHB last year and heard of more that died from accidentally overdosing in clubs and at home. Not to mention the number of close calls for people, waking up in ambulances etc. The risks involved in its comsumption are huge in comparision to MDMA, the margin for error is just too tight for comfort.
Nimai was indeed taking more than one drug. And I’d absolutely agree that G had at least something to do with his death, if not everything. But E was implicated, and it can kill. It has the ability to shut down the central nervous system. The sketchy part is why it happens sometimes, but not always.
I know you all think you know about drugs, but so did Nimai. He was a very bright lad and a bit of a chemist. He was absolutely confident in his ability to dose, mix and survive. In other words, he displayed the same bravado I see and hear so many times from chemical drug users.
I do drink, but not often and not much. I don’t like it and recognise that it is a serious drug and a serious social problem. That’s another subject.
One problem we have is that many drug users do mix drugs and activities in a way that isn’t always suitable. And of course prohibition means the contents of the baggie you buy is unknown at best, lethal at worst.
And my point that these have not been in circulation for long enough for us to really know what we are dealing with is absolutely valid. This is unknown territory.
Yes pixiegirl its very nasty stuff. But many users are totally blase about it and assume it is safe.
And someone tell me why it is now classified as safer than marijuana according to the Govt re-classification. That’s total shite and shows the classification is a mere political football and not anything to do with law and order.
And someone tell me why it is now classified as safer than marijuana according to the Govt re-classification. That’s total shite and shows the classification is a mere political football and not anything to do with law and order.
What scares me more are those you speak to that know how risky it is but are still prepared to take it from bottle caps in club toliets when they’ve been drinking. I don’t know how you can get though to them. As a drug it has brought such sadness to the clubbing community, so many funeral 🙁 yet somehow thats not reaching some people.
I agree, classification in this country is a joke.
Regarding risks:
My point was that I am entirely unable to claim a life without taking serious risks.
I have ridden motorcycles which is a risk in itself. But I also willingly took even more risk, too have fun, and to earn money.
My point is that Nimai took reckless risks but I struggle to see what he got in return. OK, partying, maybe. But drug users at his end of the scale aren’t usually partying, they are just monging.
As a result of his recklessness we all have been robbed of him, and he was a special person (ask anyone how clever he was) and I’m not just saying that as a loving father. He actually was freakily clever. Like proper genius.
So what is his legacy?
Hopefully some education to other users. Maybe an alarm bell about the future disaster that G could present to society? And, maybe, his website at MIXSTATION.net – mixstation Resources and Information. will somehow provide a sort of memorial to him.
And yes, this is intensely painful, but I’m a grown up and a realist, so don’t think we can’t discuss it open and in a straight talking way. I can cope it!
google: Nimai BBC Radio Lincs
very sorry to hear about your son.
ive seen people take ridiculous amounts of mdma and other drugs combined. ghb = killer stuff
:group_hug
I think even in the less than ideal situation caused by prohibition there are still opportunities for harm reduction.
Firstly everyone needs to be made aware of the lethality of GHB – which is becoming more popular.
Also with MDMA even with prohibition we still know two certainties.
one is that even if there is little change of getting 100% pure stuff; there will be a level below which the dealers will not cut it as they will lose their customers. Also several bits of evidence mention that it is definitely dangerous for one person doing a entire gram in a night (another lad in Western England died this way) and I think there are dangerous interactions between ketamine and amfetamine (this from my own experience, after getting what certainly felt like a dangerously elevated heart rate one night after doing these things).
Even with 100% legalisation and testing/regulation things will still be difficult for the scientists.
It is obviously not ethical for scientists to experiment on human beings to find out the safe dose; many would argue it is just as wrong to experiment on animals to ascertain the safe dose for recreational drugs (even if they grudgingly accept animal testing for necessary drugs i.e stuff what saves lives) – even then sacrificing animals may not provide an accurate safe dose due to the differences across species.
The risks will always be there and people will still die – but it is up to the users to try and minimise the risks.
Another issue is the emotional side. Recreational party drugs put you on a emotional rollecoaster – and are often taken as a substitute for real satisfaction in life.
It is very easy when doing loads of party drugs to get into a state where you are not actually suicidal or self harming nor are feeling depressed as such – but don’t really give a fuck whether you live or die that weekend.
I know because i’ve been there – thankfully come out of that way of thinking – but I sometimes get the impression a lot of people actually feel like this deep down. Life is harsh these days especially from the teens until your early thirties.
Good points General.
If you follow me on twitter @lesanto I’ll be bigging up this problem and trying to get some press on it. I’ll be doing a twitterthon on June 21 – longest day, from dawn till dusk to try and drag some publicity onto this problem.
I’d be really grateful for support and followers for this.
0
Voices
25
Replies
Tags
This topic has no tags
Forums › Drugs › Ecstasy & MDMA › Nimai Le Santo (RIP): An Overdose and his Father’s Reaction
