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Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

Forums Life Spirituality, Morality & Religion Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

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  • Does Chaos (randomness) really exist?

    Or is it just really complex order?

    Ppl sometimes say well look at a river, the water flows chaotically. But does it? Isn’t it just really complex order?

    Ppl sometimes say look at fractal images, they can be chaotic. But are they truly chaotic/random? The only way to prove it is to expand the sample size to infinity, then you can prove that the formula doesn’t repeat itself.

    Ppl sometimes say look at random number generators on calculators. But you would have to generate random numbers forever to prove that the sequence of numbers doesn’t repeat itself. And in fact some calculators do start repeating themselves within a few hours.

    Does Order exist?

    And what is order? Why can’t order be called chaos? And what if order, when followed through forever, just dissolves into randomness, and the order that you saw was actually a random glitch that looked like a recognisable, ordered sequence?

    Border of Order

    If there are isolated bits of chaos in the universe, then what does the border between chaos and order look like? Is it really possible to have a border between chaos and order? Cos surely, when chaos hits the border with order, it becomes ordered, because it sticks to its border.

    If a little island of chaos suddenly appeared in an ordered universe, wouldn’t it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can’t be any border between order and chaos?

    Similarly, if a little island of order suddenly appeared in a chaotic unverse, wouldn’t it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can’t be any border between chaos and order? :weee:

    Oh yeah, also: I reckon that the reason why some victims of serious crime try to speak with the perpetrator of that crime is because: They can’t bear the thought of the slightest bit of chaos existing in the universe, because that would mean the whole universe is chaotic, because there can’t be a border between chaos and order. Chaos = not understanding why the criminal did what he did.

    Im sure I had this whole thing sussed once in a K hole, unfortunately I cant remember what I worked out, but it had something to do with quantum theory.

    :crazy_fre

    Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

    :crazy_fre

    nice to see you on the board SD 🙂

    Raj wrote:
    :crazy_fre

    Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

    Perfickly put mr Raj

    Aint been around for a while, been partyin lots an stuff hope ure all good!:love:

    Raj wrote:
    :crazy_fre

    Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

    personally as an existentialist i think no. as far as human activity and order is concerned, research “determinism”….

    like the sig :weee:

    Quote:
    :bounce_fl Theres only one way of life and thats your own :bounce_fl

    raaaraaaraaa

    Raj wrote:
    :crazy_fre

    Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

    :crazy_fre

    nice to see you on the board SD 🙂

    Yerr, it matters to me.

    The search for some Order of course matters to some / most / all people (whichever of those options it may be). For example, timetables, routines, blah blah blah you know the score m8.

    I gave an example of when someone MIGHT act from a need for Order: some victims of serious crimes MIGHT want to reach out to the perpetrator for that reason. MAYBE.

    But that’s just a spin off from the main question about the nature of Chaos and Order, not what ya do with it, but what IS it, does it even EXIST. And it was a question, i.e. a discussion point.

    I was talking equally about Chaos and Order, not just about Order. I never even said we need Order. Please re-read the post :weee:

    In lieu of a solution to the conundrum, or an interesting spin-off e.g. existentialism (which is well deep) humourous replies are, as ever, most welcome! :crazy_dru

    Raj wrote:
    like the sig :weee:

    raaaraaaraaa

    haha nice one man, “the levellers: one way”. dont particularly like them but thats a fat line!

    :crazy_fre

    I did read the post 😉 :flowers:

    I think you create the universe as you believe it is – most people will discard the information which does not support their theories and remember what does….

    It is the mind which is involved in the perception of how the world behaves and, to me, the consideration of order/chaos as regards events is the mind chattering to itself. It stops me from being truly in the moment of now if I allow it to. Many events simply are – the attempt to rationalise their why is futile and does not change the outcome of those events. They simply happened and nothing I could have done myself would have stopped them doing so.

    [Not sure my self expression here is going to get the point across – let me know if it is unclear and I will have another go :wink:]

    of course there is order. look at natural selection from which natural order is created. things that are seemingly random can in fact be in some kind of order. Take the chaos theory for instance. if u look at a hill or a mountain u think its jus there, randomly however using maths and geography u can actually calculate how that mountain came to be there. therefore something seemingly random has in fact came about through order; different things influencing and eventually causng that mountain to form over time

    Raj wrote:
    It stops me from being truly in the moment of now if I allow it to.

    [Not sure my self expression here is going to get the point across – let me know if it is unclear and I will have another go :wink:]

    no i understand what ur sayin mate. i think. basically thinking about such matters is irrelevant because not only does it stop u focusing ur issues on what u need to be focussing on in ur life on a day to day basis, but also whether things happen naturally, randomly or chaotically they still happen. so its irrelevant HOW they happen because whether or not u no the answer they still, just happen!

    actually struggled a bit at the end there to get the point accross too!

    double post

    By it’s very nature the order of the universe is chaotic.

    There is no border because they exist together. As you said:

    If a little island of chaos suddenly appeared in an ordered universe, wouldn’t it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can’t be any border between order and chaos?

    Similarly, if a little island of order suddenly appeared in a chaotic unverse, wouldn’t it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can’t be any border between chaos and order?

    But…

    When they simply co-exist then the wonderful, exciting, random, unexpected, predictable, patterned, beautiful universe we live in is created. :bounce_fl

    And just for the record, thinking about it is worth it because if you come to the conclusion that everything isn’t written already and it isn’t just random, then you can make free choices about your life.

    Even if you ended up thinking this thought as a result of everything that happened to you before this point, you now have the power to make your own mind up about who you want to be, how you want act and what you want to do.

    Quite liberating really! :love:

    totallycai wrote:
    And just for the record, thinking about it is worth it because if you come to the conclusion that everything isn’t written already and it isn’t just random, then you can make free choices about your life.

    Even if you ended up thinking this thought as a result of everything that happened to you before this point, you now have the power to make your own mind up about who you want to be, how you want act and what you want to do.

    Quite liberating really! :love:

    i don’t really understand what ur trying to say in this bit??

    Let’s give it another go…

    The big debate is free will v’s determinism.

    Free will would suggest that the universe is random because we can randomly decide to do something out of the ordinary.

    Determinism would suggest that the universe is ordered so no matter how hard we try we could never do something that we weren’t going to do already. Consciousness is just a set of chemical reactions going on in your brain and chemicals interact in predictable ways.

    So…

    If it’s not all free chaos and it’s not all determined order then is MUST be a combination of the two.

    I am determined to make free choices and face the consequences if I make the wrong decision.

    It’s easy to say that I am free and I can make any choices I like, but you have to ask why did you make that decision? Is it because of something else that happened earlier in your life? Why do I like apples, but am not so big on oranges? I don’t know but I feel like I make a free choice every time I buy apples!

    However, now that I have noticed I always buy apples, I think next time I will buy oranges – free will in action, chaos within order.

    I am determined to eat, but today I will eat oranges!

    I am determined to live my life, but I think today I will live it with a smile on my face 😉

    Hope this helps?

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Forums Life Spirituality, Morality & Religion Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?