GL, it strikes me that you don’t really know what you’re talking about here
that is just not reality. in a small city like Exeter alone, there are over 300 voluntary organisations, from a women’s refuge, to youth facilities, to schemes mentoring men leaving prison, to sports clubs. a tiny percentage will have financial support from the ‘nanny state’. of course these organisations will have to adhere to the law and need suitable policies & training programmes to protect clients, staff and volunteers, so in that respect, “proper channels” do exist. every one of these organisations was formed after someone saw an aspect of their community that needed change, got organised, sought funding and made it happen. have a look at the charity commission website to see how many organisations have come to a great deal more than nothing
what do you mean why not do it properly? that’s just insulting to everyone who works in the sector
I do have kids and I don’t mind more money being spent on education either (and maybe less on illegal wars). If classroom sizes are too large, then additional paid staff should be brought in. I also have no objection to people giving up some time for free if they enjoy working with children, will benefit from the experience in some way themselves and it benefits the children.
the vast majority of voluntary organisations are very professionally run and far more accountable than the public sector. voluntary organisation don’t last very long if they weren’t serving a wide range of the community; funding for voluntary organisations is almost always much more closely monitored than in the public sector and can be withdrawn very easily by poorly performing organisations.
you can hardly argue that large tracts of the public sector are anything but cliques or old boy networks
then why has the number of people who volunteer been growing steadily, year on year?
without any experience, how feasible do you think that will be? yes they should be helping Cath to find a job she will enjoy, but that isn’t their agenda. Interestingly enough, the government is starting to realise how flawed new deal is and are starting to commission voluntary organisations to work with people both on jsa and incapacity to help them move towards the careers they want, through volunteering and formal training
where do you get these wild ideas? there is a national, and there are local COMPACTS; documents which govern relationships between voluntary and public sector and define good practice. in the COMPACT code of good practice on volunteering, you will find that it very clearly states that a volunteer should never replace a paid worker.
what you will also find is that where a volunteer has developed their role, this sometimes provides evidence for a need for a paid worker and new jobs are created. volunteering is a gift relationship and many people find they get more out than they put in.
i disagree again. the sector has always relied on grant making trusts (the lottery being a well-known example). the government have finally started to take on board what communities have been asking for for decades, which is more autonomy over, and greater accountability within local services. as a result, there is momentum building towards a situation where local authorities will be commissioning more and more of their services to whoever can do it most effectively and offer good value for money.
everyone gains from this; financially, in the quality of local services and in terms of accountability. traditional public services often become inert monoliths, stifling creativity, wasting vast sums in bureaucracy and failing to be responsive to local needs
i’m not saying there is no need for some standard services (access to hospitals, social services providing protection of children etc) but many aspects of these services are not functioning as well as their competitors.
factually inaccurate and patronising too :yakk:
it’s not wishy washy idealism. volunteering is a massive, thriving aspect of life in britain today, with an economic value of several billion £s
50% of people in England volunteered at least once in 2005 and the largest age group was 18-25 year olds (institute of volunteering research)
volunteering is what creates and binds communities together. you might want to get out there and try it!
quote from one of exeter city councils senior officers: “if the local authority shut tomorrow, there would be inconvenience. if the voluntary sector shut tomorrow, there would be chaos”
AFAIK you also do or did have a vested interest in this sector, which paid you for a while in your life so you are gonna look at the bright side of it
I know about the areas I’ve lived in – where I’ve seen far too many “do-gooder” organisations fuck up after taking a fair bit of donations and public money, particularly in Londonistan. Its one of the reasons why the voluntary sector was derided as the “looney left” in the 1980s and sadly a lot of these were the ethnic minority charities, and the fallout has fuelled a lot of racism.
what do you mean why not do it properly? that’s just insulting to everyone who works in the sector
I did check out the charity commission website (some years ago, following a local news article exposing fraud in a charity), and found lots of local organisations which have not sent in their proper details of accounts etc or have not been properly administered, over the years in local news I’ve read lots more of allegations of fraud, bullying and bad practice in charities (albeit probably no worse than private business, but private business doesn’t demand my money without providing a service).
Same with better run private sector companies. Unfortunately it seems many are essentally private sector organisations but using peoples goodwill to drive down wage costs.
And what about the managers of many charities? people who have power hold on to it
a lack of paying jobs, an ageing population of middle englander doo gooders, plus students looking for work experience (can’t blame them if thats the only way they can get the experience). Better to volunteer for a bit than sit on your arse, I’d agree with that
The trade unions have mentioned this – and how many actually adhere to with these regulations? who polices it? Probably needs a govt regulator / quango to keep track of it.
yes, this is called privatisation and outsourcing to the lowest bidder, and as much as I loathe capitalism perhaps its better this done by private business that pays someone a salary rather than relying on volunteer staff.
sounds like something off a spin leaflet to me , no different from the public sector spin
admittedly its a good gap year filler for your CV
I’ve tried it, seen organisations fuck up (as a youth worker in SE England and various other more informal things) – never again
Plus my non-blank CRB and record for drugs counts against me in most areas unless I want to be a drugs counselling worker and TBH I can’t be fucked with helping people who often don’t want to help themselves…..
Sorry, but Britain lost my goodwill when it refused to accept my lifestyles a few years back.
they could be angling for a job in one of these “voluntary” places after his/her job gets outsourced – be nice to peopel on the way up as you might meet them on the way down.. or its just a “backhanded compliment” pointing out so many essential services are dependent on charity.
I would grudgingly concede there are good people in the voluntary sector such as yourself and perhaps those people trying to help the sex workers and drug users in my area, but the voluntary sector is being used as a pawn in the game to introduce back-door privatisation whilst undercutting real private sector solutions using people’s goodwill. Its the British problem of “doing things by halves” – and like anything else in this fucked up dysfunctional country the bad will eventually drive out the good and the nanny state will take over once again and maybe deliver half the goods.
In my field of business (where we compete for Council contracts) we’ve got voluntary organisations that have received public funding (I have been doing some digging) working as pseudo-commercial organisations and trying to undercut our prices (and thus take business from us).
Maybe this doesn’t happen in your area so what I am saying sounds harsh but it certainly happens here and also in SE England – it is a potential threat to the business I work in so I feel I have a right to be angry when it affects my livelihood…
yes i manage a youth action agency, helping young people access volunteering and encouraging, motivating and supporting them in their personal development
i’ve worked in private and public sectors and this one suits me best, although each has it’s strengths and we all need to work together and use one another’s expertise to have half a chance
i don’t know about I’m looking on the bright side or if I just find a lot to like about the sector
on the whole though, the sector was largely supported and even funded by thatcher in the 1980’s, rather than being seen as the loony left. de-centralised services have always been popular with tories and liberals
i’d be interested to know more about the organisations you’re talking about and how / why they fucked up. there are voluntary organisations that are poorly run, just as in public and private sector. these usually don’t last long (except ones like A4E, which just won’t go away, despite being a massive rip off of public money and ineffective in the medium / long term).
if you want to use that analogy, i think it’s a poor one. there are plenty of private businesses that would do exactly that. try a builder out of the yellow pages
bad shit happens everywhere, committed by members of different identity groups. as you know, we are not governed by our identity groups.
examples of fraud are not the norm. i think it’s quite common for a few people to get together and raise a few quid for a plaque on a bench or some school books for africa and they aren’t business people and they don’t keep the books properly. examples of some very professional organisations would be homestart, nspcc, british red cross, some CVS, women’s aid
bad practice exists in every sector too, no point denying everything isn’t perfect
i don’t believe this is what happens. there are plenty of private buisnesses commissioned to provide public services and i think they don’t often have the shared values that public and voluntary do. agency nursing is what drives down wages, because agency staff don’t join unions and business managers in the NHS etc abuse that
i manage a charity and believe me, i want to keep my charity afloat because i believe in its’ value as a service to young people, not because i’ve reached a certain salary point and i’ve been here for years and you can have that grant if i get that building contract, see you at the club, Nigel
the demographic research contradicts that it’s older people. levels of volunteering in older people is falling (people working longer, more likely to look after grandchildren when both parents more commonly need to work to survive… or are richer and are taking more holidays and golf etc).
many people use volunteering as a tool for careers change and many more are unfulfilled at work and want to try something more rewarding in their free time. people returning to work after a long period also volunteer as it eases the transition and refreshes their skills. and students.. many realise that 4 hours of lectures a week and a few late nights for 3 years might not prepare them for work
funding bodies are very thorough in checking who they give larger sums (£30,000+) to. with the charity i run, every penny has to be accounted for, witin detailed budget headings. failure to do so can result in legal action for breach of contract
anyone with a bank account can apply for a couple of thousand of public money for a comunity project. if you ever joined one of the boards that decide who to give these small, community grants to, you would quickly get fed up of hearing about pom-poms for majorettes. they are expensive.
edit. COMPACT is peer enforced
how can you ‘outsource’ to a local group?
i think you misunderstand the sector. some voluntary organisations involve volunteers. many don’t. the name of the sector is slightly misleading, but it represents the not-for-profit, rather than some imaginary unwaged staff aspect.
many of the voluntary organisations i work with use NJC payscales (in line wit UNISON). volunteers do sometimes deliver a project which is run by paid staff (i’m a volunteer mentor to men leaving exeter prison; i had to complete a level 4 NVQ first) but these services compliment public sector (in this case probation, police etc) rather than take work away from them. more commonly volunteers add value to service. think of social services ensuring that an elderly person doesn’t freeze to death in their home, then add someone who pops round as a volunteer to cheer them up and help them to understand their bills.
basically, the sector doesn’t rely on volunteers. volunteers provide added value to an organisation (like a school). the sector’s name may be misleading
no just some information from someone who is proud of his and his colleagues work
you’re running under the mistaken impression that volunteering is the preserve of the middle classes. i work with many vulnerable young people who are facing complex issues in their lives and who want to volunteer. our role is to assist young people to make positive changes in their community (of interest, identity or geography). volunteering is a powerful tool of personal change. i’ll PM you some case studies if you like.
i’m sorry you’ve had a negative experience. emerging groups often make the same mistakes as everyone who went before them. good planning helps a project to last
unless you record is very recent, is for violence or is exempt under rehab of offenders, you won’t be excluded from anything
leopards don’t change their spots, eh?
outsourced from central government to local control? 😉 or maybe he was being nice to competant people he needed to deliver better services?
there are a lot of good people in the world, they just don’t get much press coverage. i think positively of the future. you need to do that to be able to work in the voluntary sector; funding is so unstable that i face possible redundancy every couple of months
i guess you’d need more pursuasion to see it my way, but i think i know what i’m talking about re: the voluntary sector & volunteering in the most part and arguing about health and social care isn’t the most interesting topic for a rave forum
rave on raaa
In my field of business (where we compete for Council contracts) we’ve got voluntary organisations working as pseudo-commercial organisations and trying to undercut our prices (and thus take business from us).
let’s get the bastards, they took all the jobs!
sorry mate, need more info to know what i think about that. i like social enterprise, not up for exploitation (or the statu quo)
there’s a big recycling centre in exeter that is financially self-sustaining. it takes business away from the council, in that the council couldn’t achieve their recyling targets, but someone else could be less positive
I disagree – I work in such a business as an IT/Finance manager for a social care organisation which is private and makes a modest but not excessive profit (most of which is ploughed back into the business – the rest is allocated to staff pay rises)
I would say we have exactly the same values as the public/voluntary sector and in some cases better where we have delivered more than the public sector could and cleaned up after some of their mistakes.
There are private businesses with these values; perhaps smaller ones rather than massive corporates. Lots of the staff (myself included) are ex-public sector and would have probably stayed there had the sector not been decimated by constant budget cuts.
I will admit I wouldn’t even bother with this kind of instability; it is bad enough in the IT industry. I am wholly fucked off with jobs that only last a few years/months and then have to move halfway across the country to stay in work..
I’ve tried my hand with voluntary stuff, either through the “proper channels” (as a council youth worker) or at “street level” with the squats/community centres. I gave it a good few years of my life, it all fucked up and came to nothing and I’m not going to do it again, don’t have the spare time or energy any more. At least I gave it a try….
As far as I am concerned I do my work, pay my taxes, try to be good to family and friends and I don’t willingly hurt anyone else. What I do do at work (indirectly) helps my society – the people at work need good computers and telecoms and the company needs to stay afloat in order to help the clients..
Thats good enough for me.
I’ll leave the discussion at that…
PS: I’ve moved these posts to avoid totally derailing cath’s New Deal interview advice thread!
yeah good move to split it
you can probably tell i’m quite passionate :shy:
basically, i think what Cath has been doing is wicked 😎 and i hope it helps her for the future
just thought id chip in that i recently started as a voluntary youthworker in a “creative drop-in lounge” for 11-19 year olds and i have found the work incredibly rewarding. without it i doubt i would be able to deal with such aboring town and dayjob. altho i give my services (vj and graphics tutorials) for free, i feel that the benefit to me is easily worth the time and effort i put into it.
i would like to get paid (if thats what you mean by “proper job” gl) but i also understand that the youth service is critically undefunded, and for the centre to acheive its potential it needs volunteers. it wont be permenant (in fact my manager recons i could look at it as a career option because im quite good at it) but until i prove to the council that they need the service i provide (they dont get vjing) it will be hard to get the extra money allocated, so im on dead mans shoes on the pay front.
in the mean time, im applying for a few different grants (nationally arts council, regionally mediabox) which will provide a full audio-visual suite and payment for my services.
since the taxpayer will be coughing up my salary eventually, i dont see the difference between donating my time and being paid by taxpayers, in that both come from the common good. whether its an idividual donating their time, or the taxpayer paying taxes and voting on how the council should be made up, and therefore run.
i was totally honest about my past from the words go, and altho it appears that my crb check was clear, i told them all about organising illegal raves, and selling pills and weed in my youth. i told them as a kind of test, as i would only want to volunteer if its on my terms and in my own way (to a certain extent, im not gonna spark a spliff in front of the kids, or try and fuck any of them). i feel that i am fully respected and appreciated more than any private sector job i have had, and i think that comes form a lack of financial motivation within the sector. yea, we have to meet targets to prove we are effective, but these goals are about reaching young people inan effective way, not producing profit.
im suprised to see this attack on voluntary sector coming from gl, and im wondering why he seems so intent on doing the sector down. to be honest i dont understand his arguments or where hes coming form at all. seems liek sour grapes to me.
Its not so much an attack on the concept of “voluntary sector” itself but the way it is being very subtly used by those who control the purse strings. I still feel the council should fund more of these services (particularly youth services) in the first place, which is what it used to do in the pre-Thatcher era.
Councils can reduce internal bureaucracy and deliver quickly when they want to (they manage it easily enough when busting people for licensing violations, or parking fines or litter wardens busting people), so they could easily set up youth centres or if they feel an outside organisation should deliver the service then it should be properly funded by paid staff.
I will admit that my views are coloured by the fact that in my area “voluntary sector” organisations that are part funded by the public sector appear to have set themselves up as competitors to the company I work for – yes I am defending my interests and my livelihood – for which I make no apologies.
But as I said to Globalloon this may not happen in your area (the regions are all different in the ways they are run).
I do live in a Tory heartland (apart from Ipswich urban area) where those in power believe privatisation and the market are the way forward, and if they can use the voluntary sector to drive down pay scales across the board they won’t miss a trick…
I accept there is a market for youth services as they keep kids out of trouble, even on a market basis paying for this is far better than paying to deal with the crime/anti-social behaviour that bored youths commit.
Unlike many others I do not resent paying council tax towards this (and there are plenty of voluntary/council funded youth services here), rather pay for that than extra coppers to crack youths’ heads when they kick off in the street through sheer boredom…
I still feel that the voluntary sector is being exploited to cover up chronic underfunding and peoples positive efforts and goodwill are essentially being taken advantage of – the same councils and quangos you all scrape around for funding from are paying shitloads to consultants (who are looking at ways to reduce the overall spend but increase their fees).
thats why I have withdrawn my support and remain sceptical and cynical about the net outcome (until maybe if we elect a fairer government), despite the “good things” happening in the short term.
“working for free” hasn’t exactly done the creative industry career paths much good… If you have a copy of “No Logo” look at the bit about internships and “work experience” in the media industry.
try big boost as well (if you’re still under 25)
I still feel the council should fund more of these services (particularly youth services) in the first place, which is what it used to do in the pre-Thatcher era.
central government are putting millions into provision for youth volunteering through V. the statutaory youth service is going to get a thorough review in the next spending review.
oh another idea (which i’m sure i’ve told you about before).. i have a friend who runs a recording studio and film editing suite. he funds it by teaching people who have no maths or english qualifactions to produce music and film and has built into the learning some basic numeracy and literacy as well as the creative-technology side (if you want to release a CD, how much will you need to spend on 1000 blank CDs, producing the sleeves, distribution and tax is how the maths is introduced, for example)
you could get a basic training qualification (you can do train the trainer for about £150) pretty quickly and sell this kind of service
you could get a basic training qualification (you can do train the trainer for about £150) pretty quickly and sell this kind of service
that is an excellent idea, even if you have told me about it before. if you have any idea what the specifica of the course is (who runs it etc) that would be amazing.
@G.Lighting,
I still feel that the voluntary sector is being exploited to cover up chronic underfunding and peoples positive efforts and goodwill are essentially being taken advantage of – the same councils and quangos you all scrape around for funding from are paying shitloads to consultants (who are looking at ways to reduce the overall spend but increase their fees).
i dont disagree with yo here, i am getting quite frustrated at the results-to-funding ratio expected of teh centre. the manager is very poorly trained in that he has excellent youth-work skills but fuck all knowledge of creativity or technology (whih i would say is a failing for some one running a modern creative drop-in lounge). also, without me there, the knowledge of how to run, maintain and exploit effectively the technology inside the centre is virtually no-existant. the music tech course is the only creative course which is really any good (my vj course is getting there, but its early days).
that im expected to work for free on my own machine with virtually no IT-support (well, theres support if i want my email login changed, but thats the limit of their usefulness) is starting to grate too. i wouldnt be bothered about the cash but i had a job dangled in front of my face by my manager whic turned out to not exist, so i got all ready for being paid and then found out it was bullshit, which is unprofessional to say the least, but was driven by the managers misplaced anxiety (and wishful thinking) at keeping me there.
that said i dont see that as a case for giving up. i more and more beleive that change only really happens form the inside, and if i have to be the council’s gimp for a bit in order to earn some clout within the service then so-be-it. i agree that youth services (and various other community projects) need more funding allocated by local and national government, btu i dont think turnign my back on it is gonna help.
having said that, you two know better than most what an antagonistic bastard i can be, so whether i last long without getting fired is a wait-n-see deal. i have the manager of hampshire youth service coming to my next session, will be interesting what he makes of my perspective, and vice versa.
anyhoo, we had our first re-launched music event for young people last weekend and it was off the hook. aside form one girl getting her face stamped on in the moshpit, nowt bad happened. result. oh, except i got bollocked for smokking with the kids…but thats another story…
do you mean the teaching course? it’s called train the trainer. many FE colleges run it. it’s also know as 7302 . in the next couple of years you will require an additional ‘license’, which will be achieved through a further short course, but exactly what form this will take hasn’t been decided yet.
is the youth club you’re with putting you through tap1 & tap2? or a youthwork nvq? ask them to if they aren’t… it will cost them a drop in the ocean, is a good grounding for youth work and help you in your volunteering or to get a paid job
with a bit of re-phrasing, i might agree with some of that… volunteers (rather than the voluntary sector … that would suggest that millions of people act accoring to some political magnetic force with no critical skills)are exploited by some organisations. this is bad. a great deal of work has been done and is being done to establish standards of good practice accross volunteer-involving organisations in voluntary and public sectors. IME it is the public sector that is lagging behind in this. IMO it is only the public sector, with their garanteed existance and associated arrogance that can get away with treating people like this
i don’t agree that the VS as a whole is being exploited; there is a temptation to follow funding (a case of ‘mission drift’) but to make a generalisation, the sector has quite a few pretty bolshy people who fight tooth and nail for their causes / clients. the very nature of the sector, with a much shorter step between front line staff and managers, means there is less complacency; VS managers are just as likely to spend time counselling staff that have been dealing with upsetting situations as looking at finances
the same councils and quangos you all scrape around for funding from are paying shitloads to consultants (who are looking at ways to reduce the overall spend but increase their fees).[
i manage a VS organisation that works county wide and that has good financial support from the county council. the hardest part of our work to find funds for is core costs (manager, admin etc). the county council commisson us to carry out consultations and develop strategic plans for them. this is done by us at a very reasonable rate for the public purse and puts us in a position where we have a degree of sustainability to source funds for our service delivery (from lottery etc). the landscape is changing for the better, at long last, thanks IMV to the growing role of the VS and the decline of the ‘business consultant’
thats why I have withdrawn my support and remain sceptical and cynical about the net outcome (until maybe if we elect a fairer government), despite the “good things” happening in the short term.
the days of micro-management from whitehall are numbered. the local govt whitepaper is all about fairer, more accountable local leadership, with more commissioning of work on social care, for example, to communities. this can only be ‘fairer’; your city / town / area will have different needs to mine, therefore respond to those needs locally. the propsed methods aren’t perfect, and some lcoal authorities are dragging their heels (not wanting to give up their empires) but the thrust is more say in / control of your local services
“working for free” hasn’t exactly done the creative industry career paths much good… If you have a copy of “No Logo” look at the bit about internships and “work experience” in the media industry.
that’s a whole other fish pond. working for free in a profit making company is clearl exploitation and has nothing to do with the above
well i had a good morning
we had a visit to our modest office from the head of devon youth service (who has worked his way up through the ranks), the elected county council portfolio holder for youth, and two guests from spain from an exchange programme that we are going to be working with to provide a placement for a (paid) intern
while the spanish contingent were asking about our orgnisation, the councillor put in to tell them them we are a cutting edge organisation, representing innovation in the field of youth work, and that out sphere of influence is much wider than the young people who use our service.
i’ve never met him before but he clearly knew a fair bit about our work and thought highly of it.
the public sector youth services are dashing headlong down the route of delivering national curriculum (which we hit every target of, but incidentally) and in parts of the county are rapidly failing to enage with those who need the service most (young people at risk of permenant risk of exclusion ffrom education, drug mis users, care leavers, homeless, offenders etc)
this, i believe, is a good example of the voluntary sector leading in their field, as opposed to some bunch of incompetant amateurs, as general lighting makes out :omg:
and no, we’re not undercutting anybodies wages (we use NJC payscales). we have already poached some of their best staff, but purely because those staff want to be effective, and recognise that our approach is exactly that
so ner 😉
glad to hear it went well in your case, but I still think (although your organisation is obviously good by any standards) that its a lot to do with different regional attitudes, and still wholly dependent from support of those in power. in your case you are clearly lucky enough to have obtained this…
Also perhaps SW needs more youth services than Eastern England as its not as easy for youths to get jobs….
at least round here even if you don’t have A-levels/degrees you can still get a job at the docks dealing with all the goods coming in from Felixstowe or Ipswich, the construction industry is still booming. There are jobs in trades, and both construction and trades are highly skilled jobs which have good prospects. There are call centres and high tech industries in Suffolk and North Essex.
There’s a lot of competition from immigrant workers but the jobs are still there. Our region is economically stronger than London in some areas.
All my younger friends may not be getting the jobs they wanted to do, but they all seem to have jobs, money and reasonably decent lives, and if they want to attend further education they seem to be able to do so easily. Those who got into trouble have done so because they were muppets, most seem to do their crime, do their time and then get their lives back on track without needing do-gooders to “sort them out”. Their friends and family often do this, which IMO is actually a very positive thing.
Luckily many private businesses here that don’t need CRB clearance for staff aren’t so uptight about criminal records (and even those who do give people a chance), provided you don’t rob your employers which is fair enough IMO.
And like I said other than the urban Ipswich area (which might swing to the Tories this may) its true blue all the way.
They do very grudgingly fund some voluntary groups (unsuprisingly, the groups assisting sex workers got a lot of funding last year, although so did various surveillance/policing initiatives).
But funding is definitely skewed towards those who would be accepted by a Tory council, particularly one which is outsourcing/privatising everything that moves. The voluntary sector here definitely is a very parochial, Conservative one, with a lot of power being held by religious groups. I study a lot of local history and TBH I do not think it has changed a lot since the 1600s and the days of the “parish dole”.
For instance one of the local groups banned teenagers from its committee and closed down its youth wing because they feared they would “damage the facilities”. Now the youngest person in that group is 60 years old.
There are a lot of village halls run by local voluntary committees (but still in some cases receiving council funding), when younger people try to do a relatively harmless “hall party” in them (something that has actually been done since the 1960s/70s, and if done properly could bridge gaps between generations) the hall committees trigger the “rural crime alert system” :hopeless:
Its strange given the otherwise good family/community values, I suspect its once again the remnants of Puritanism in this area – but its also be the case that lots of people here mistrust any form of “organisation” (public, private or voluntary) and tend to do things for themselves.
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