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  • Nice rant mate

    Have to say, Im no anarchist, I think we need the law, but the law should exist to protect people from each other, not to serve the taxman under the BS cover of saving people from themselves.

    Party hard well ya can, and dont let anyone tell you it’s wrong

    <— Is no Anarch, but…

    Common misconception anarchists & Kaoten are the same thing. Anarchists don’t believe in a state of power-vacuum, or civil war if you prefer. Even modern oxymoron anarcho-offshoots like Anarcho-Capitalism believe in some sort of Law & Order concept.

    The difference between liberal democracy L&O wank and traditional anarchist conceptions of the same, is basically just that the latter consider it an axiom that Autonomy Ideal (… crappy English, sorry) is both basis and extreme limit of L&O constructs.

    So yeah… Not free to blow away your pusher and nick his shit. Also not free to fuck with people because of the drugs they use, the hours they party, the music they listen to, or whatever other victimless kult stuff you can think of.

    Whilst I mean no disrespect the original post was about as balanced as the Post Offices bank sheet. Compromise? There must be a way forward that doesn’t upset others. Though how that will happen i dont know. And when you have seen what some partyfolk do to buildings/the local area I can understand the upset.

    PS I can’t quote your original text but the end of it makes me want to eat my own brain with a spoon or at best hope you’re as ignorant as I was when I was 17. You repeat that mantra when something fucks up and the nice people with the ambulance come and get you.

    @Itsamagicting 508680 wrote:

    You know what, I’m sick of all the haters always having a reason to complain about this music and the way I live my fucking life,
    I can’t believe these suck-ups from the authorities,
    Telling me that my nightlife is to be cut short,
    Closing clubs at three instead of five, six and seven,
    Not even considering my afterparty on a Sunday fucking morning,
    Ha, I’m gonna get mashed up before the sun goes down,
    I’m gonna get drunk too quick in the pub,
    And I’m gonna pop pills in the lines to the club,
    Don’t try to fucking understand me, just let me escape from reality,
    Ain’t nobody telling me what to do or what not to do,
    This is my life, this is my music, so fuck you!

    SHOWTEK FTW!!!!!!!

    @Winston Smith 508727 wrote:

    Whilst I mean no disrespect the original post was about as balanced as the Post Offices bank sheet. Compromise? There must be a way forward that doesn’t upset others. Though how that will happen i dont know. And when you have seen what some partyfolk do to buildings/the local area I can understand the upset.

    Compromise how? If a kult can’t leave your society and your society offers nowhere for it to exist within itself, how can there be compromise at all? Either the kult decides not to exist, or it’s in some degree of conflict with the society that refuses to accommodate it.

    @Winston Smith 508729 wrote:

    PS I can’t quote your original text but the end of it makes me want to eat my own brain with a spoon or at best hope you’re as ignorant as I was when I was 17. You repeat that mantra when something fucks up and the nice people with the ambulance come and get you.

    *Confizzles* who and what you addressing?

    EDIT: never mind. Prolly too caught up in all my own inanalienation crap 🙂

    Iv never agreed with the theory that ‘you do drugs to escape reality’ drugs are real are they not? as are the sensations they give you.

    Im not too fussed with drugs and its quite rare they I touch them…but whos to say ‘your activity’ is more fullfilling than that of a raver?
    I think everyone at some point should experience the rave. For all those people to come together and absorb one anothers happiness is quite remarkable.

    @Izbeckistan 508806 wrote:

    Iv never agreed with the theory that ‘you do drugs to escape reality’ drugs are real are they not? as are the sensations they give you.

    Im not too fussed with drugs and its quite rare they I touch them…but whos to say ‘your activity’ is more fullfilling than that of a raver?

    in a fair society all activities should be judged on their benefits, costs and risks (to participants and non participants) as to how fulfilling they are – there are always social and resource constraints.

    well organised raves are by and large relatively harmless, as is moderate recreational drug use, and are still tolerated in many parts of Europe. My personal experience is society is way more open minded and tolerant than 20 years ago, and where events or activities have been restricted its because they have had negative consequences, whether its excessive noise/drug use, environmental contamination or other social problems.

    After all if someone was throwing their trash into the street rather than a bin, or beating a harmless small dog with a stick, no one would tolerate that and they would either try and stop in within a community or if the person refuses to stop their activity, get someone in authority to put pressure on them to stop the bad behaviour..

    Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
    wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.

    @General Lighting 508850 wrote:

    in a fair society all activities should be judged on their benefits, costs and risks (to participants and non participants) as to how fulfilling they are – there are always social and resource constraints.

    Bollox. A truly fair society much acknowledge that it cannot possibly make moral, ethical or value judgements for anyone considered a sane individual

    @General Lighting 508850 wrote:

    in a fair society all activities should be judged on their benefits, costs and risks (to participants and non participants) as to how fulfilling they are – there are always social and resource constraints.

    well organised raves are by and large relatively harmless, as is moderate recreational drug use, and are still tolerated in many parts of Europe. My personal experience is society is way more open minded and tolerant than 20 years ago, and where events or activities have been restricted its because they have had negative consequences, whether its excessive noise/drug use, environmental contamination or other social problems.

    After all if someone was throwing their trash into the street rather than a bin, or beating a harmless small dog with a stick, no one would tolerate that and they would either try and stop in within a community or if the person refuses to stop their activity, get someone in authority to put pressure on them to stop the bad behaviour..

    I always liked the idea of woods parties but I doubt I will go to any in the future. I mean all those rigs blasting really fuck up wildlife. Think of the poor nesting birds, young trees trampled and no matter how hard you try cigerette butts still get left on the floor.

    @dis 508852 wrote:

    Bollox. A truly fair society much acknowledge that it cannot possibly make moral, ethical or value judgements for anyone considered a sane individual

    it must still make judgements on whether a group activity is a good thing or not (otherwise anything from environmental destruction and animal cruelty to bullying and violence could slip past the net) it is an idealistic and unattainable society anyway.

    in a realistic situation someone has to monitor behaviour to judge who is “sane” and therefore there always needs to be some form of security, surveillance and policing.

    The unfortunate folk in Norway found to their costs in July 2011 (our UK newspapers as well as Scandinavian media just shown the video where Anders Breivik drives the van with the bomb in to a parking space outside a govt building. I can see from the zooming the guard thinks “something is not quite right here” but they did not have as a strong a security culture as the UK, so before someone could be tasked to investigate the van, the bomb is detonated.

    your argument does not address the social and resource constraints either, there is not an infinite amount of resources (ironically its why many well meaning left/green organisations which should know better fall by the wayside)/.

    in reality the North European countries the bulk of us live in are the nearest we get to a fair society, (DK, NO, DE and NL being slightly better than the UK albeit with higher levels of taxation). They are not perfect but have a lot to offer folk whilst still offering a larger amount of freedom than many other places. if not, there would not be so many folk wishing to stay in them or to migrate to them.

    Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
    wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.
    On Liberty wrote:
    The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right… The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

    — John Stuart Mill,

    Saying I can’t hold a Catcher in The Rye bonfire in my backyard, or that some more or less or not at all democratically appointed group of wankers are fit to determine what I – fully informed . should or shouldn’t do to or with myself…

    That is the definition of constraint.

    Freedom – the right to self-determination to the fullest possible extent that it does not infringe on the self-determination of another – that is something very fucking different.

    EDIT: Sorry, the definition of an autonomous individual can be argued. Typed this little rand up while you were posting.

    “Someone must monitor” – I can only disagree for the most extrem. If anything Breivik examplifies three things: that only with the complete surrender of privacy can such atrocity be maybe, possibly, if the enforcers of the legalcode happen to have time travelling devices, limited more than they can without any surrender of privacy.
    That the imposition of a set of values/ideology combined with the literally armed suppression of separatism breeds even more absurd violence than such denial of the concept of free association even requires.
    And that unconstrained/fluid populist representation rather than direct creation and recognition of a society’s code creates utterly monstrous farce where a mass-spree-murder terrorist (as the term relates to the existing regime) who should never have been forced into the society and whom the society absolutely has the resources to isolate for perpetuity… Will almost certainly end up being attempted forced back into society within my lifetime.

    An argument for or against the ideal of autonomy is not based any more on economic growth potential or commonly accepted wealth concentration or distribution schemes any more than,say, the price of petrol. Whenever you talk about near-entirely evenly distributed impacts in the context of the … thing the original free market capitalists would be turning in their fucking graves to hear it called now… The trick is… Ta-effin-da; even distribution. You really have to move out into outright absurdist caricature before it even can have a meaningful impact to 90% of a current first world population.

    . It’s a choice with a universal social impact. But hey, it’s not like the Autonome Ideal can co-exist at all with our current economic system. They’re completely at odds… And fuck me I so cannot speak English right now, I’m really sorry. I keep flailing like fuck to not write like a German Yoda on crack or something.

    – Last bit you’re kind of a chilling right about. I live in one of those pt. Not because any of them is a good place to live, but because they’re the least bad.

    . Also… I really am not any kind of anarcho-whatevs. Or even vaguely interested. Guess at most I’m just a post lefty sick as shit of seeing just about everyone but me I’ve ever come within a mile of in the druggy drug asshat world were people who fifn’t just get less than I’ve just started getting in Crazy Person welfare. They got 1-fucking-3rd of the absolute minimum possible a native-born AND white no-future jerk-off who isn’t even enough of a mental fucking adult to pit on clean socks every day, could ever get under any circumstances.

    I’m more sick of populist scare-tactics-scape-goating at this point that I think I’ll ever be of the sheer fucking idiocy of criminalizing something like 50% of everyone with mental problems just because they really and honestly cannot cause anything other than misery and shitty violence without self-medicating, and rewarding multi-millionaire mass-murdering Rich People Terrorist rings for giving those so disowned just a tiny and fuck-awful kind of chance to live.

    @Izbeckistan 508854 wrote:

    I always liked the idea of woods parties but I doubt I will go to any in the future. I mean all those rigs blasting really fuck up wildlife. Think of the poor nesting birds, young trees trampled and no matter how hard you try cigerette butts still get left on the floor.

    in my areas most crews tried to avoid the nature reserve bits (with varying degrees of success, as they did not always do the correct level of research). the real problems are the balloons left on the floor, people not clearing up after their shit and also keeping the party going too long on Sunday.

    it was precisely that what did infringe on others freedom. As silly as it seems, the crowds associated with raves are very intimidating to dog walkers and passers by especially in recent times. It was a bit friendlier in the 90s but I am aware of people being mildy aggressive to non participants – even banter from a drugged up person can be frightening to someone in their 60s who has never come across a rave before…

    Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
    wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.

    @dis 508861 wrote:

    “Someone must monitor” – I can only disagree for the most extrem. If anything Breivik examplifies three things: that only with the complete surrender of privacy can such atrocity be maybe, possibly, if the enforcers of the legalcode happen to have time travelling devices, limited more than they can without any surrender of privacy.

    “someone” does not always have to be the Police or Council – I just picked that as the video was shown yesterday on UK news. Ordinary people are making their own surveillance infrastructure.

    Many leftwing groups across Northern Europe have to carry out their own surveillance operations to protect themselves. It is not a good or ideal situation but when society is so divided that is unavoidable. As an example, unauthorised photographers simply are not permitted in Christiana Denmark, nor in many parts of Amsterdam. Which is understandable as drugs prohibition still limits freedom, but means there is still a counterargument DIY media from those areas is biased.

    but if you are running say an anarchist bookshop or hackerspace or a rave, and a random van turns up which is not known to be from the crew, then surely it makes sense to keep close watch on what it might contain? OK a bomb is very extreme and unlikely, but it could be full of rightwing hooligans, or even a more desparate person who is only there to try and steal your computers or other useful things that would disrupt your community.

    Even in the licensed Dutch raves, who was allowed to put up photos was once strongly limited to make the events look as good as possible. That said smartphones and youtube and a trend towards the absolute surrender of privacy you advocate has arrived, but has shown a darker side of these events (many mass fights for some reason).

    Today with technology you cannot stop anyone from monitoring anyone else. which can be both good and bad. as many youtube films do not show people who take drugs in a good way and that impacts how others view them and the laws.

    I don’t know enough Norweigian to judge exactly how much Brevik’s activities were suppressed in his youth (as in North Europe good English skills are used to hide bad news but more subtly than French etc do this).

    The impression from English language info about this incident I got was they were not and he cynically but very effectively made use of a “liberal” society to hide the ultimate extent of his plans and activities, especially as he managed to weave them in alongside the free market and fears about immigration. I am aware from friends who are from Scandinavia that leftwing dissent was clamped down on quite hard in the 1980s and even 1990s.

    I also grew up in 1980s as well and can understand many of the problems affecting European public services and healthcare and mental health care but welfare payments currently have to come from taxation of those who do with to participate in a capitalist economy – and because of this there are also many “normal” people who democratically vote for centre right politicians because they don’t want to pay as much of these taxes (even though they are a pittance compared to money spent on atomic bombs, limiting taxes for big American companies and other bad things).

    Also in my country (the UK) there is not that “socialist” culture of working together to a consensus, nor as much a deep seated dislike of “strong government” (as we were not invaded in WW II). We also follow USA too closely and their culture of low tax and less public service and belief in society. Which today is a source of a lot of problems across Europe, UK folk do actually have more individual freedom and they use it in a selfish way (consumerism, cars, instant gratification). And this culture crosses over the North Sea. I live in a North Sea coastal town of England and it is full of not just the usual immigrants seeking work (which is fair enough) but also middle class white European immigrants from rich North European countries who have moved here to pay less taxes than they would in their home country.

    Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
    wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.

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