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  • hedmekanik wrote:
    There’s two ways, I figure, to look at it – one way is to say, well, if a nation colonises another, there’s gonna be consequences, immigration is one of them, in the long term. The other way of seeing it is that if immigrants are determined to leave their home countries and settle in a new land they must be prepared to engage with and respect the traditions and norms of that host country. At times this may mean that they have to regard their own priorities as secondarily important in relation to those of their newly adopted home.
    [snip]

    While at first glance I think this SEEMS to make some good sense, I think globalloon makes a better point at the end of his message.

    When I moved to the UK I did, and still do, have every intention to embrace and love the traditions of this country.

    BUT the thing is, we’ve got a free society. A free democratic state.
    You CAN’T have it both ways. You can’t have an unchanging, “That’s the Way It Is” attitude, and at the same time have a government which supposedly represents the needs and desires of the voter.

    You either have a facist system that limits the individuals political power to hold to some ideal society.

    Or if you LIKE Democracy and human rights, then you NEED to let people change and alter their government, even if that heavily upsets the apple cart.

    As a most extreme example – A truly democratic government can’t guarantee you democracy as you know it forever.

    If the state is the servant and will of the people, then the people have the right to fire the government and put a new structure in.

    If the government can’t accept radical change as demanded by the people, it’s NOT a democracy. It’s something else.

    i cant stand them, they drive me mad, all of them.

    i work bloody hard 12 hours a day 5 days a week just to have a shit load of my wages taken from me in taxes, and for what? to support these spongers. i live in oxford and have done all my life. Im a single 21 yr old female who has been on the list for council housing for five years, yes thats right, FIVE YEARS!!! If i had been from another country id have been given a key to a house and a benefits book at the airport on my arrival.

    just a story- two days ago i phoned 118 118 to get a number and as you all know these are really expensive at about 50p per minute. A bloody immigrant answered who couldn’t speak or understand a word of english. I was on the phone for at least 5 mins spelling out smiths to her. what a waste of money. if they’re gonna live here then at least have the decency to speak our language.

    Send ’em all ‘ome is what i say!!!!


      Staff

      :hopeless: :hopeless:

      *You're my favorite place to go to when my mind searches for peace *

      party punk wrote:
      If i had been from another country id have been given a key to a house and a benefits book at the airport on my arrival.

      This is from a local Council website.

      Quote:
      Who can join the housing register?

      In accordance with the Housing Act 1996, Part VI (as amended by the Homelessness Act 2002) and the council’s allocation scheme, all applicants are eligible to join the council’s housing register apart from certain classes of people that are ‘subject to immigration control’ as prescribed by government regulations. In short, those that are ‘subject to immigration control’ as defined below can not go on to the housing register and therefore can not get council housing :

      • A person registered with the Home Office as an asylum seeker;
      • A person or visitor to this country (including overseas students) who has a valid leave to enter or remain in the UK on the condition that they do not have recourse to public funds;
      • A person who has a valid unconditional/unlimited leave to enter or remain in the UK who is not habitually resident in the UK, Channel Islands, Isle of Man or Republic of Ireland;
      • A person who is a national of a non-European Economic Area;
      • A ‘sponsored person’ who has been in the country less than five years and any other person who is in the UK illegally or who has overstayed their leave.

      IME most asylum seekers live in detention centres until their claims are checked; these are like prisons and not on normal residential areas.

      other immigrants who settle here are mostly living in private housing and are paying for their accomodation from their own pockets (such as the overseas workers at my employers).

      Even on a “council estate” a proportion of the houses are increasingly in private ownership – so unless you are prepared to do some digging and find out who owns one you cannot make a judgement that “immigrants” on a council estate are being funded by the public.

      If people in your area are giving false details to get housing then its an offence and if you actually have evidence of this then turn them in to the Council rather than whinge about it on here!

      Incidentally many other citizens would also argue that they pay taxes as well and why should there be any Council housing to subsidise those who can’t or won’t compete for housing within the free market?

      Lots of my mates are in the same situation as you and they just pay rent on flats or get mortgages.

      Quote:
      just a story- two days ago i phoned 118 118 to get a number and as you all know these are really expensive at about 50p per minute. A bloody immigrant answered who couldn’t speak or understand a word of english. I was on the phone for at least 5 mins spelling out smiths to her. what a waste of money. if they’re gonna live here then at least have the decency to speak our language.

      This is the fault of the private company for recruiting staff (in their UK call centre!) with insufficient skills – OTOH I have had as much problems with incorrect info and bad service from call centre staff who are clearly UK residents who speak English (NTL is a “good” example of this problem).

      The complaints line for the 118 service you were dealing with is 0800 389 1118 and I suggest if you are really that angry you take it up with them (or even Ofcom).

      On a final note, I see that you were asking for a number for free parties back in April.

      I’d point out that at a free party, particularly the ones in SE England and London area there are a lot more world citizens of all nations both as crew and party people – from France, Portugal, Spain, often further afield. This has always been the case on this scene TBH..

      If you take or have ever taken drugs you also support the same gangs who can often get people as well as commodites into a country by bending the rules.

      Even if you don’t take drugs youself, if you support parties, you are supporting also peoples self defined rights to take recreational drugs.

      You are also supporting peoples rights to free travel and expression worldwide (think of Spiral Tribe and their world traveller adventures). Many of the people involved in todays parties go to Europe and other countries every year to rave in their nations despite local opposition there.

      If you feel that strongly about stopping immigration, do you still really want to get involved in the rave scene?

      Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
      wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.
      party punk wrote:
      i cant stand them, they drive me mad, all of them.

      i work bloody hard 12 hours a day 5 days a week just to have a shit load of my wages taken from me in taxes, and for what? to support these spongers. i live in oxford and have done all my life. Im a single 21 yr old female who has been on the list for council housing for five years, yes thats right, FIVE YEARS!!! If i had been from another country id have been given a key to a house and a benefits book at the airport on my arrival.

      Well I’ve lived in Oxford for two and a half years.
      I get taxed just the same as everyone else.
      I haven’t taken a single penny of benefits or recieved any kind of government aid whatsoever.

      I think the UK needs to seriously look at it’s public spending. However what I’d love to see is for education, all education, to be free.

      It’s appalling to me that good minds are going to waste because people are too scared to take on personal debt. And why should they?

      If you want a system where only the wealthy and well-off can afford to have a proper education, go to America. The average Brit will be as ignorant as your stereotypical Mid-West American yokel [1] if this country doesn’t get serious about really providing a good quality of education for it’s citizens.

      Education is the foundation of a strong democratic society.
      And oddly the more educated someone is, the less likely they are to hold anti-social, racist, discriminatory points of view.

      [1] I’m not saying people from the Mid-West of America are yokels or uneducated, I’m merely reminding everyone of an example of the typical stereotype. Sorry people from the Mid-West USA!

      Vibration wrote:
      If you want a system where only the wealthy and well-off can afford to have a proper education, go to America. The average Brit will be as ignorant as your stereotypical Mid-West American yokel [1] if this country doesn’t get serious about really providing a good quality of education for it’s citizens.

      although the education system here has some problems there is a very good free education system until age 18 …. even if you fail high school you can often go to further education college from age 16-18 for free – hell, even if you get put in jail or go through drug rehab you can get free courses to help you out.

      After that age university education (post 18) in the UK is seen as a career move rather than a social enlightenment, there is a lot of racism and sometimes actual violence from extremist groups on campus and plenty of bigots here with degrees (many of whom go for management jobs and then use their power to try and deny access to jobs/resources to minorities)

      most people in the UK do have a fair amount of qualifications, its often not so much ignorance and stupidity but choosing not to listen and actual anger at the loss of Britains perceived prestige and the Empire over the years, and being a sore loser when someone from an immigrant community wins in a competition for jobs/resources etc…

      for instance although most of the people on this board are progressive and didn’t like the idea of the Iraq war, at least half the population of the UK didn’t care as they thought they would get cheap petrol (gasoline) and people only started complaining when our soldiers started to get killed…

      Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
      wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.
      General Lighting wrote:
      although the education system here has some problems there is a very good free education system until age 18 …. even if you fail high school you can often go to further education college from age 16-18 for free – hell, even if you get put in jail or go through drug rehab you can get free courses to help you out.

      Yeah but you won’t be able to compete with that forever.
      In the IT Industry most of the resumes I see are people qualified from the University of Bombay, Shanghai, etc etc.

      I don’t personally care where anyone is from, I just want to work with people who know what they are doing.

      But I think the long term end of all this is going to be everyone in Britain working in the service industry, and no one actually MAKING or ENGINEERING anything.

      Which seems like a damn big waste of brain power.

      Quote:
      After that age university education (post 18) in the UK is seen as a career move rather than a social enlightenment, there is a lot of racism and sometimes actual violence from extremist groups on campus and plenty of bigots here with degrees (many of whom go for management jobs and then use their power to try and deny access to jobs/resources to minorities)

      Oh yeah, I don’t believe that having a Bachelor’s Degree or whatever is going to magically cure your deep seated prejudices, but I do see the more educated people tend to be less racist.

      It’s not the magic bullet though. Just a trend.

      Quote:
      most people in the UK do have a fair amount of qualifications,

      Well they do NOW but are they going to be able to compete forever with China, India, and other emerging nations.

      Again, i don’t actually care. But I think that British people might do.

      Quote:
      its often not so much ignorance and stupidity but choosing not to listen and actual anger at the loss of Britains perceived prestige and the Empire over the years, and being a sore loser when someone from an immigrant community wins in a competition for jobs/resources etc…

      Yeah but it’s annoying because it’s the same stuff all over.

      In California you have people bitch about the hispanic guy or the black guy who took their job. Well maybe they were immigrants, or maybe their family has been living here since 1723.

      It’s just setting up fake, phoney ass, “US Versus Them”, which is keeping society a barbaric and unpleasant experience.

      Quote:
      for instance although most of the people on this board are progressive and didn’t like the idea of the Iraq war, at least half the population of the UK didn’t care as they thought they would get cheap petrol (gasoline) and people only started complaining when our soldiers started to get killed…

      You know what honestly pisses me off?

      I’m from California, I’m an American, and I’ve chosen to like the UK because I prefer it in the UK.

      I really like the UK. Love it.

      Sometimes, not too often, people come up to me, strangers or drunk co-workers, and start blaming me for American foreign policy, start blaming me a guy I didn’t vote for, “the great white satan” George W Bush, and they happily tell me that America is ruining the world and is a war mongering super power.

      And for awhile I just hung my head down and accepted it. But one day it clicked –

      “Oh. And OF COURSE, YOUR GOVERNMENT immediately stepped back and said ‘No. This is wrong. We aren’t supporting this’. And you took the moral high ground and showed the world the way!”

      The truth is the British public have decided to demonise and blame America for everything. Like some bogeyman.

      No one wants to admit that their government, which they voted for, is responsible to any degree in any way shape or form.

      If you voted for Tony Blair, you’re more guilty than I am, cause I didn’t vote for Bush.

      Tell ya what. In six months or so, I’ll be able to vote in British elections.

      How about we people of Britain find some politicians with some balls?

      How about we elect someone who doesn’t have their foreign policy drafted in Washington DC?

      How about we elect someone who puts the needs of Britain FIRST?

      How about we elect someone to tell America to fuck off?

      Why don’t we stop being the bitch in this “special relationship”?

      If it’s so special, let’s see how it survives if we just say “NO! ENOUGH”
      Just once.

      Can we do that?

      Then maybe we can start to redeem ourselves.

      Vibration wrote:
      Yeah but you won’t be able to compete with that forever.
      In the IT Industry most of the resumes I see are people qualified from the University of Bombay, Shanghai, etc etc.

      I don’t personally care where anyone is from, I just want to work with people who know what they are doing.

      But I think the long term end of all this is going to be everyone in Britain working in the service industry, and no one actually MAKING or ENGINEERING anything.

      Which seems like a damn big waste of brain power.

      this is a big problem in Britain with the cultural perception of manufacturing and engineering

      many people don’t actually want to study or learn about science, technology or engineering in this country (even the USA has a better attitude IMO), yet it was (and to an extent still is) easier to get grants or funding to study these courses here than a liberal arts course

      Its still seen as “difficult” and “uncool” to an extent and even those people on the rave scene (which is dependent on high technology) often dumb themselves down and adopt a technophobic attitude – OK not everyone can be a super-brainy scientist type but people don’t even want to learn the basic principles of science these days

      (and then they wonder why they can’t get their computers or electronic equipment to work… – and why jobs go to people who can make these things happen)

      Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
      wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.
      General Lighting wrote:
      this is a big problem in Britain with the cultural perception of manufacturing and engineering

      many people don’t actually want to study or learn about science, technology or engineering in this country (even the USA has a better attitude IMO), yet it was (and to an extent still is) easier to get grants or funding to study these courses here than a liberal arts course

      I got a great mate, Israel, and I’m more impressed at his mad soldering skills than his mad basketball skills.

      But maybe that’s just me being freakzoid.

      Science is cool dammit! People should wake up to that!
      You can do so many awesome things with a little bit of applied science.

      Quote:
      Its still seen as “difficult” and “uncool” to an extent and even those people on the rave scene (which is dependent on high technology) often dumb themselves down and adopt a technophobic attitude – OK not everyone can be a super-brainy scientist type but people don’t even want to learn the basic principles of science these days

      Well I used to have a headily optimistic “Science and technology can solve all the world’s problems man!” attitude.

      I’m a bit more skeptical now.

      But yeah, it’s just a huge irony that just as we get a massive glut of information, available at our finger tips, 24/7/365 about any topic in the sphere of human knowledge – people can’t be arsed.

      You don’t need to go to to library and dig up some dusty old book that’s 15 years out of date. You can find out just about anything with a few clicks.

      We should be going through a ginormous knowledge boom right now.

      Quote:
      (and then they wonder why they can’t get their computers or electronic equipment to work… – and why jobs go to people who can make these things happen)

      Knowledge is power!
      Yup!

      The free entry to (most) EU citizens is a consensus decision – the result of long standing negotiation between 27 countries since 1945…

      Unlike Norway, Britain decided to try and cherry pick the bits it wanted out of EU membership (i.e. the free trade) but always whinges about the social aspect

      The EU also arose out of the ashes of global conflict and although bureaucratic and costly, how else would people rather have it that things were sorted out?

      by trade wars and embargos, or even by Europeans fighting and killing one another like they did from 1939 to 1945?

      as for non-EU citizens – There just happens to be a copy of a work permit on a desk next to mine (its from one of our overseas nursing staff)

      it says very clearly

      • No recourse to public funds
      • Work (and any changes) must be authorised
      • Must register to the Police within 7 days of arrival

      I don’t really think that is “too soft” at all…

      Auch wenn du am Abgrund stehst, und gar nichts mehr verstehst,
      wachen Engel über dich, halten dich im Licht und lassen dich nie fallen.

      If a person is prepared to work hard to do well in life than I beleive that that person should be given a chance, no matter where they were born. If there isn’t any work nearby and you have a family to support, you would move to a place where there was an opportuntity to work and earn money.
      It’s human nature.
      I think that with cheaper travel, better communtications and higher levels of education throughout the world, we will see immigration increasing rapidly. Not just from poor countries to England, but English people moving away to poor countries where the weather is nice and the country is sparsly populated. I’ve me several people who want to go and live in African countries like Kenya or Mozambique for example. They’ve made their money and now are more interested in quality of life rather than employment opportunities.
      The world is truly becoming a small place and I definatly think that it’s a good thing.
      I hope that when people of all races, religeons and nationality can live together, there will be less violence and unhappiness in the world.
      It’s going to happen and I want to help it to happen.

      COF u’re thred is misinformed
      Hungary joined the EU in 2004 and it’s not in eastern europe
      Romania and Bulgaria joined 2007 😉

      u could hardley obtaine a turist visa for the UK,a work visa?u must be kidding
      the UK keeps the restriction even today,no visa need it but u can not live or work in the UK for some years,for the new comers in the EU ,legally i mean.Many countries like France,Germany lifted this restrictions years ago 😉
      Most of the immigrants are illegal,i also disapprove with the stealing and other illegal stuff that they are doing and if i were a UK citizen i was mad,i agree,but this is not the topic.
      And if we are here,let me tell you a story:
      i have a friend,really poor.He had a kid,He could not rise him so he gave his kid for adoption.The child was adopted by a UK citizen.In two weeks that child was molested,she was 3 years old.
      He wanted a good future for his kid in a rich country,because he couldn’t do it and what did he get?!

      Too quote you:”Personally, I think we’re far too soft.”.What do you worry for?!that a immigrant will take you’re job?!Are you afraid?!
      What do you know about the EU?!UK joined in 1973,were you born back then,by your opinion i think not!You take everything for granted and you don’t even know being a citizen of the EU is all about.
      Didn’t you read the homepage of this site?!”PartyVibe.com is a modern forum for open minded chat!…”You think like a redneck that supports the war in Iraq.

      pardon my poor english dear sir
      yes,i’m from eastern europe

      for more info:
      http://europa.eu/
      http://immigration.about.com/library/weekly/aa071700a.htm
      http://www.euimmigration.org/
      http://www.google.com/ 🙂

      Interesting discussion. For as long as we want cheap prepacked/precooked foods in our wasteful supermarkets, we will need cheap labour to produce it for us. Would you want your kids to work in stinking slurry factories all their lives? Part of the problem is that in alot of cases the gangmaster and people traffick networks are ultimately run by white British gangs anyway. Ironically the nouveau riche daily mail readers constantly scaremongering about immigration are the ones who insist on cheap food, travel, foreign property etc. This country is much better off for the cultural diversity we have, and compared to other European countries have integrated immigrants really well. You should try Belgium or France where whole cultures are being ghetoised and criminalised.

      party punk wrote:
      Send ’em all ‘ome is what i say!!!!

      “fuck off and stop spoutin daily mail shite” is what i say :yakk:

      if all the immigrants in this country downed tools for just one day, we’d be on a standstill. ’nuff sed. borders are shit anyway. nationalism causes 90% of problems in this world.

      boothy wrote:
      “fuck off and stop spoutin daily mail shite” is what i say :yakk:

      if all the immigrants in this country downed tools for just one day, we’d be on a standstill. ’nuff sed. borders are shit anyway. nationalism causes 90% of problems in this world.

      exactly, i do not like the fact that im going to find it hard to get a job, cos some foreign person can do it for much cheaper, Although i do not think that they should be sitting on there asses,

      i think restriction is the only way to go

      bush

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