Hello.
I read this today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4614515.stm
And I’m a bit confused about the state of things.
In case you can’t be bothered to read it (it’s not particularly exciting), it says that 1 in 5 children between the ages of 11 & 19 are being bullied by mobile phones.
Now, I do not and will not condone bullying of any form, but I have never heard of anyone being bullied by phone ever before. Admittedly I’m not actually at school, so I am unaware of many things that (mass media) surveys tell me is happening in the playground – like the vast amounts of crack-cocaine being sold between the kids, the gangs of peadophiles hanging around the school gates ready to kidnap children, not to mention the force feeding of greasy chips by the Government (nothing to do with the parents not making sandwhiches, of course), but I digress.
Now, although I don’t doubt that children’s behaviour and activities have changed over the years, I can’t believe that 20% of children are victims not just of bullying, but of a specific type of bullying.
I’m beginning to believe that the adults who compile reports are actually unaware of what real bullying is.
When I was at school, I was one of only about 6 non-white people in the entire school (in case you’re wondering, I’m a Porto/Anglo Indian/Italian chap). I got bullied pretty much as soon as I stepped through the gates. At the time, it was absolutely terrible, but looking back, I realise that I didn’t have it half as bad as some other people. I know what being bullied is like, what it feels like and also how powerless any teachers or parents are to stop it.
What I also know, however, is that when someone comes up to me and says “cut your hair and have a bath you stinking fucking hippy”, which happens from time to time, that is NOT bullying. If they came back time after time, targetting me as I walked home from work, waiting round the corner for me, THAT would be bullying.
A text message calling someone fat is not bullying. It’s mean, it’s really mean and not fair. It shouldn’t be done, but IT IS NOT BULLYING.
Sometimes peoples’ memories of things will be slightly clouded, especially children. When they were passed the piece of paper with the qestion “have you ever been bullied?” the majority would probably answer “yes”, but this doesn’t mean that their life was made a constant hell all the way through their school life. I was bullied, but I can still look at my school days as relatively happy – but like I say, some had it much worse than me.
The thing that gets me most about the ‘nanny’ culture that’s coming out is that those children who are seriously bullied, who are victims of a sadistic louts most days they are at school, are still going unheard when the kids who have merely been teased are shouting to get their voices heard and drowning out the cries of help from people who actually need it.
It’s the ones who can’t ask for help who need it the most.
peace
It’s the ones who can’t ask for help who need it the most.
That makes sense and it’s something I haven’t thought about before. I reckon you are right in saying that a high percentage of people who say they have been bullied have only suffered minor taunts. Although that’s not pleasent it’s nothing compared to what serious bullying is like I should imagine.
As for phone bullying, I can understand how it would work. If kids are bullied at school and then can’t get away from it outside of school due to constant text messages with death threats etc then I can imagine it an be quiet a harsh thing. I remember how vicious kids can be and no doubt the shit some kids get via text can be pretty fucked up.
incidentally I also went through the situation of being one of the only ethnic minority kids in school – in the days when a non-white face was actually uncommon on some schools and an obvious target – it was far worse in the “better” schools like prep schools as well (yes I did attend one for a short stage in my life – fucking hated it, it was more like being in YOI than education)
I think the article was rather lazy journalism, it is not just mobile phones being used but a wider form of high tech bullying – which has elements of criminal harrasment. It didn’t happen 5 or 10 years ago as kids didn’t have access to the tools to carry it out!
Apart from happy slapping etc what is happening is that unpopular kids are being photographed without their consent and then unflattering pics of them being sent via mobile comms and/or posted on websites/message boards with abusive comments (often by kids misusing their schools IT facilities) – and the unpopular kid being spammed by all electronic means with the messages.
In school what used to happen is that the bullies had to be relatively near – in many cases the kid would only take so much and eventually punch one of the bullies (or the kid would form their own gang and there would be an obvious fight which would then get broken up by teachers/dinner ladies etc)
also in my day computers were more complicated. Bullies were usually thick, and did not know how to work them.
but now the bullies can hide behind keyboards and its a lot more indsiduous….
Morning.
When I got home after work last night, I saw a couple of things on TV about this – the only thing I’d seen before was the BBC news article.
I think I may have underestimated slightly the effects that this can have; some of the threats that have been sent I can imagine are really quite frightening for the ones that receive them.
Maybe I’m being too judgemental about the whole thing – though my argument was about what “real bullying” is like, it all seems to stem from an “in my day” attitude, which is where a lot of the blindness seems to come from – I apologise for that.
It’s true what you say, Mr Lighting, about bullies behind keyboards being more insiduous (I had to look that word up in the dictionary to make sure I understood!), it’s as though the electric network has give them more corners to hide in.
I think what it comes down to most of all, is that I don’t understand kids anymore. I say anymore, the only time that I think I ever did was when I was one, and for a near 30 yr old (29 forever…) that’s a long time back.
I don’t believe that I’m particularly niaive about things that go on in the real world, I am just still getting to grips with the fact that there are some out there whose only purpose is to make other, smaller, people’s lives that little bit more difficult. But then, bullying doesn’t just happen in schools, but everywhere.
and it’s not just kids that do it…
The problem with bullying for kids is that they can’t ask for help. When you get older, if somebody starts harrasing you, you can report them to the OB and at least something will be done, even if its just a talking to it can be enough to scare people off. (Anyone who isn’t will be more worrying than a bully I would imagine – it will be sombody with a personal grievance) However, as a child you don’t have that option.
I was bullied at school, in the true sense of the word – there was rarely a time when I didn’t have a few bruises. I’ve been beaten, outcast, verbally asaulted and in one case staple-gunned in the head. (Don’t worry, I’m over it now and quite happy) But nothing was ever done about any of it. I only reported things to teachers twice and both times it made things worse for me. In a school you can’t be seen as a snitch, it only creates more enemies.
This is one of the reasons that people can’t seem to connect to those bullied – I find it hard now to imagine taking all that crap, and why I didn’t do more about it, but in a school environment things are different. I don’t see how this can change really, as the main problem is not punishing the offenders, but getting kids of 11-14 as a group to become more considerate to each other.
How this fits into bullying by mobile? I think this is a huge problem, because not only can kids now hurt/abuse/humiliate a peer, they can save it to show the entire school. Being beaten by a group of 4 kids is one thing, having a video clip of the act being played back to hundreds of students is another entirely.
How can we put a stop to this? I don’t know, and if we can’t figure it out as a group of (hopefully) intellectual adults, what chance to kids have?
Glad you’ve come through it Parrot Boy.
I think your last sentence says a lot –
I would imagine that generally the bullies are not hugely intellectual, so they can’t be taught their mistakes through intellectual means. And telling teachers, much less than a fruitless excercise, actually makes things worse.
So what is there that can really be done?
Should it be ‘eye for an eye’ or should you just turn the other cheek?
Though these are the two extremes that can be done, I’m trying to think of the middle way, and don’t know what it would be. There’s been blame on the Government also, but I don’t really understand what they can do.
I’ve spoken to some of my friends about this last night, and a couple of them said that they too were bullied at school, and all they could really do was just get on with their life and hope that it stopped.
Far from my the first post I wrote claiming that this is a ‘nanny’ culture, this seems to have completely reversed (at least I’m learning too!). I don’t think adults will EVER have the power to stop bullies, unless their parents can learn how to raise their children with better moral values.
Either that or the bullies should be strung up…
Kids have bullied each other ever since we were monkeys “play fighting” – theres always a few runts that just get smashed.
I came out of my experiences quite well, I feel I’m a better person for it. But it worrys me that bullying is getting more and more scary. I never once felt like my life was in danger. Sure I didn’t want to go to school, but it was’t because I didn’t think I’d be coming back…..
I don’t think we can solve the problem of bullying in principle, kids will always be bullied (until the US perfects their brain-contol machine), but how can we stop things going too far?
I came out of my experiences quite well, I feel I’m a better person for it. But it worrys me that bullying is getting more and more scary. I never once felt like my life was in danger. Sure I didn’t want to go to school, but it was’t because I didn’t think I’d be coming back…..
I don’t think we can solve the problem of bullying in principle, kids will always be bullied (until the US perfects their brain-contol machine), but how can we stop things going too far?
because I wasn’t a big chap and being from an ethnic minority was an obvious target, I tended to pick the strategy of forgetting the queensbury rules (as most enemies were bigger than me) – and clobbering them with the nearest available large object or improvised weapons.
This did drive them away – but got me in all sorts of trouble; by the time I started secondary school I had a disruptive/violent marker on my school file – as I did not look like an obvious thug I still remember the look of surprise on the headteacher face when I went for my initial school interview…
looking back on it though, I was lucky not to end up in a secure unit – just for self-defence…
Also I think the 70s generation was actually the last to get a real childhood! Kids are encouraged to act like teenagers at age 9-11 (it was starting in the 80s) but they are now starting puberty earlier as well, so with lads they are getting the rush of testosterone which encourages a lot teenage aggression.
And TBH things are not being helped by unsupervised playing of violent computer games, and watching TV where many programmes from soaps to reality shows give the impression that confrontation and violence are an acceptable form of behaviour.
there’s also a weapons culture and a lack of respect for life – yes I used weapons when faced with a physically larger offender but only blunt items and for self-defence; however a lot of young lads are routinely carrying knives and are even prepared not only to use them, but show a level of anatomical knowledge of which parts of the body to strike to maim or kill.
the recent stepping up of laws against underage sex wasn’t actually because there was hordes of evil nonces at school gates or lurking in internet chatrooms; according to reports from the kids support NGOs in the Guardian its actually because boys of age 10-15 are often committing serious sexual assaults on girls of the same age – its gone beyond kiss chase and flirting to group rape in some areas…
it does seem though a lot of it happens because kids are denied childhoods by the “free market” ethos which sees them as junior consumers; they are finding themselves with greater physical strength and being exposed to “adult” concepts (sex, drugs, the need to “conform”) without the emotional maturity to deal with these concepts (hell, some of the people I know in their teens and twenties still are having problems dealing with their emotions!). There is also now far more tension and competition in their lives from an early age (exams, pressure to get girlfriends/boyfriends, to do well at sports/music etc)
in this climate, sadly, bullying and aggressive behaviour (amongst all age groups) will thrive.
i’ve always been fairly confident, and just before i started secondary i had a growth spurt and shot to nearly six feet tall at the age of 12. this meant that when i started in a school of 1,500 from a small town school, i was singled out as someone to beat if you wanted to prove yourself.
because of my height, i won a lot of fights that i didnt start but i fought through lack of control and anger when i was started on. this made me a lot of hard enemies, and as school wore on, they caught up and felt they still had to beat me to feel good about them selves.
because of my earlier bouts, i was not scared of a fight, and was one of the only members of my crew that were willing to stand up for themselves. [this was back in the early-mid nineties, when the two main groups in my school were the kevs (or chavs) and the indiekids (or greasers as the kevs called us). i was well into my psycedelic rock and indiekids]. i still got the shit beaten out of me a fuck-load of times. all i can say is that it has made me unafraid of pain or fights, and made my resolve to be free more potent.
on one memeorable occasion about fifteen kevs rounded the corner near the hut we used to hang around, like a pack of geese or dinosaurs, and descended on me, beating me to the ground and kicking me about. the thing about all this, was tha it meant something, it was me standing up to the kevs and getting beats for it.
what i think is much worse is the bullying of the already weak in these schidey ways. prank phone calls, rumour spreading, posting stuff on the net, behind the back, cowardly sly shit. thats what gets in peoples head. the worst thing that ever happened to me wasnt physical, it was wondering wether the kevs would be out in force to night, and in what pubs. it was having to worry about stupid wankers who you shouldn’t have t think about.
unfortunately, this kind of bullying is by its very nature the hardest to track, unless the victim seeks help, because they beleive there is some that can be found. a freind of my brothers who was getting prank calls ended up ringing the school pretending to be his own father to get something done. he was found out, but he got help.
there seemed to be a lot more fighting in USEs area… here in Reading (maybe because it was a relatively affluent area?) there was actually very little fighting between kevs and indie kids!
TBH I was probably seen as a “kev/casual” by the goths/indie kids and they were a bit wary of Asians at first as they were often seen as either “swots who end with arranged marriages and kids by age 17” or “dodgy druggie types” – but eventually I was accepted [as I somehow defied all social sterotyping] – furthermore there was very little trouble in my old secondary school, and by the late 80s/early 90s we didn’t even fight the other school across the county border any more!
I do think however that cannabis and the start of the rave scene had a great deal to do with this! TBH many peopel were too stoned to fight and for a few years at least it was quite loved up….and amazingly, dealing networks actually built friendships across the social barriers.
I am not suggesting drug use and dealing as a solution for schoolyard problems though – as eventually the paranoia / psychosis / run ins with the cirminal justice system did for a lot of people shortly after leaving school – many found themselves caught up in addiction and crime, having fucked up their academic progress due to being caned throughout 6th form/GCSEs…
what i think is much worse is the bullying of the already weak in these schidey ways. prank phone calls, rumour spreading, posting stuff on the net, behind the back, cowardly sly shit. thats what gets in peoples head. the worst thing that ever happened to me wasnt physical, it was wondering wether the kevs would be out in force to night, and in what pubs. it was having to worry about stupid wankers who you shouldn’t have t think about.
unfortunately, this kind of bullying is by its very nature the hardest to track, unless the victim seeks help, because they beleive there is some that can be found. a freind of my brothers who was getting prank calls ended up ringing the school pretending to be his own father to get something done. he was found out, but he got help.
and this is where mobiles have made things worse. In the old days someone who prank called a home would eventually end up with the phone being answered by their enemies parents; who would be more likely to get BT and the cops involved……… with mobiles the kids themselves are hardly going to show their olds details of every text and call they get….
I think we may have had relatively similar childhoods, GL (although, admittedly, everything’s relative) but when I was at school, I spent a lot of the time being called a ‘nigger’. I turned round to them once and told them that I was actually from an Indian bloodline, when they started calling me ‘Paki’ instead. I think this shows the intelligence of the wider bullying generation.
In the end, I just ended up staying away from the people that were teasing me (note – teasing NOT bullying), as that seemed to be the only way that I could get through school and not get myself into trouble – At junior school, I was told that I had a ‘temper problem’, and admittedly, I did sometimes lose my rag when I was surrounded by people taunting me (that WAS bullying) but I couldn’t explain it to anyone – when my mum asked me what happened, what was I meant to say? “You were born outside of England, Mum, thats why I get into fights.” But like I say, when I learnt to just stay away from them, it calmed down.
When I left school, it all seemed to clear up a bit, but around my neighbourhood, there were a lot of the kids who used to pick on me, and whenever they walked past, there’d be some kind of snide comment.
But strangely, it all changed. Now, to quote Mr Lighting:
But when they realised that some little coloured, dreadlocked kid could get them what they wanted, they stopped their racist slurs, and wanted to be my friend. It is strange how tables turn when people get older.
Should I have turned my head, stood on some moral high ground and told them about the years of shite they’d put me through, or sould I have just thought ‘fuck it’ and let it lie?
With phones and computers and stuff, though, there’s no way of completely knowing who it is that is doing the victimisation – there’s not a face in front of you anymore. How can kids make peace with bullies when they don’t even show their faces?
I think if I was a child at school these days, I’d have a terrible time.
At least we’ve still got techno…
i doubt that my area was rougher than most – i went to school in dorking in the surrey heartlands, which is affluent as and my school was top of the shitty league tables. there is very little ethnic diversity in that area, however, which meant that while there was racism, it wasn’t very pronounced (if that makes sense, i think it has to do with ignorant whites not feeling threatened). also, as it was an affluent area, there was very little robbery type incidents. it was mostly “you called sharon a slag” or the type. i remember bein started on for wearing a socialist star on my coat, which was quite intelligent of the bullys to recognise, if you ask me.
in a way, i find robbery incidents easier to deal with than straight aggression based incidents, as you know if you give the mugger something worth money thay’ll go away. if they just want a fight, or a spectacle, or to humiliate someone, then its much more difficult to get out of.
as ive said before, ive been mugged 8 times, and i have no problem givin up my phone/ money etc to someone demanding it, i have no clue why someone would risk their health for a material posession.
last weekend I went to a student house party – was speaking to a young lady who comes from the southside of the city (often labelled as “chav central” and the butt of many of ricky gervais’s jokes – indeed her family actually know ricky gervais, some of her older relatives were at school with him!)
anyway this girl is good looking, talented and intelligent, but went to a school with a “reputation” for being rough…. still she did really well… her teachers all thought she would be able to go to 6th form and uni and then drama school
but in her final years of secondary school [high school] all her (female) friends from primary school just turned on her and started bullying her. I guess it was jealousy and I’ve been told by other girls that girls are way worse than blokes in this respect – the saddest thing is that they intimidated her to such an extent that she did not attend school for much of her final years and didn’t get the grades needed – so the bullies managed to hold her back (and she is a girl who didn’t cave in and stuck up for herself as well!)
I did wonder why she didn’t now go to college and get whatever qualifications she needs (she could still get a grant) , but she said she also realised that if she did study to become an actress there would be even more jealousy and bullying as she competed with so many others for a career, and she also has seen how “celebs” have their lives torn apart by the tabloids which put her off her dreams…
not surprised that the situation is so fucked up. it seems like this culture of bullying is entrenched in society….
to quote David Mitchell
“a purely predatory world shall consume itself. Yes, the devil shall take the hindmost until the foremost is the hindmost….
… Is this entropy written within our nature?
If we believe that humanity can transcend tooth and claw … [cont] … if we believe leaders must be just, violence muzled, power accountable and the riches of the eath and its oceansshared equitably, such a world will come to pass. I am not decieved. It is the hardest of worlds to make real.“
peace, unity and courage my friends
“a purely predatory world shall consume itself. Yes, the devil shall take the hindmost until the foremost is the hindmost….
… Is this entropy written within our nature?
If we believe that humanity can transcend tooth and claw … [cont] … if we believe leaders must be just, violence muzled, power accountable and the riches of the eath and its oceansshared equitably, such a world will come to pass. I am not decieved. It is the hardest of worlds to make real.“
peace, unity and courage my friends
we need to get the kids/teens/youths to believe that as well..
its strange though, I can read or watch loads of stuff about the war and crime reports off the net like all the gangland shootings in London etc and it doesn’t really emotionally affect me if the people involved are in their 20s,
I also feel that the war was inevitable because there are too many people in positions of power all across the world and lots of angry young men (to join armies etc) who wanted a fight….
the same thing goes for the amount of mindless violence in society – most of the people who do this have reached an age they have already made a choice to live their lives by violence and for some only death or prison will stop them being a threat to society…
males in particular have been programmed to compete and fight; some of the more enlightened of us can channel that energy in more positive forms whilst still “proving ourselves” – but there will always be some that go too far…
but when I hear about younger or vulnerable people being bullied or cruelty to animals that really does affect me……..
I think though that violent behaviour must be challenged at a very early age (perhaps in primary school) – not putting kids in secure units (unless they have done something extreme like GBH or murder) but positve education – and we need more positive role models for young people…
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